Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue

[Tom_Doak]

This is an open thread to discuss the positives and negatives of the course.  You can talk about rankings or compare it to the other courses at Streamsong if you insist, but we did not build it with that in mind.  Golf course developers would always prefer if


As many may know, the routing of both courses was a collaboration between me and Bill Coore.  Originally, The Mosaic Company wanted us to build courses on two different sites [they had four in total, including the site for Streamsong Black], but both Bill and I thought that the one site was far superior, and it seemed close to big enough to fit both courses, so we agreed to work together toward that goal. 


Bill had done a couple of 18-hole routings before I got involved, and a few of those holes made it into "my" course, but I won't identify those until the end of this discussion.  [So you've got to tread carefully, because your critique might offend Bill !]  Anyway, after some back and forth, we wound up with a 36-hole routing, and then neither of us wanted to be the one to choose who built which of them.  Ben Crenshaw came in, walked both routings, and said he would be happy working on either of them. 


Eventually, Rich Mack forced Bill to make a choice, and Bill attributes his choice of the Red course to the extra earthmoving it would require and Jimbo Wright's desire to have more work to do.  I don't know if he was serious or not.  I do believe that Bill did a better job with the Red course than I would have done, but to say that is to discount my whole crew and what they would have added to the design, so maybe he didn't do any better than WE would have done.


That's all I will say about it for now.  I don't really intend to participate in the sense of arguing your opinions; but I may provide some background on why something was done the way it was, or call you out if you state something as fact that isn't.


Have at it!


P.S.  The bonus here is that it's much easier for me to do now that our client Rich Mack is no longer at The Mosaic Company, so I don't have to worry about you [or me] offending him.  One thing that posters here rarely think about is that as opinionated as I may be, I have clients to answer to, and their egos can be every bit as wrapped up in their golf course as mine is.  Sometimes more!  So if you think I am too positive about my own courses, I will admit that maybe sometimes that's true, but not for my own sake.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,


Ok. I will throw out some criticism. Well kind of!
 
After playing the course a few times during the Renaissance Cup, I just didn’t think it was a very good “resort” course. It felt like it would work better as a private club.


Why? Because there just seemed to be quite a few shots I wasn’t satisfied playing my ball and moving on. No, I wanted to try 3-4 shots.


By contrast, at least for me, a course like Pebble Beach is a better resort course. Even some of the more famous shots (e.g., #8 approach, #18 tee shot) I recall being happy to execute just once the times I played PB.

[Mike_Trenham]

I will not answer with a criticism but a question. 


In anyway did you see when building it similarities of #4 to #16 at Merion East?

[Carl Rogers]

Am privileged to play one of Tom's early courses. Riverfront.
At the risk of being a weenie, I find the approach shot to hole 4 (elevated green, huge bunker on slope, slope tilts toward) bunker impossible for me to pull off.  Can't hit a shot that far with sufficient height.
So in 2 rounds there, I have laid up and wedged it on.  Never came close to a party. 
As the next 2 holes offer birdie chances, I am OK with this.
Will return to Streamsong as soon as Covid is over.

[Jerry Kluger]

Okay, I will take a shot - it seemed to me kind of for the lack of a better word, manufactured, that you had to climb up to get to the first tee and then climb on down after you hit the shot.  I believe that you also climb up to the first tee at Ballyneal but then when you walk out on to the fairway you are at the same level if not a bit higher.  So was the first tee at the Blue created purely for the visual effect?

[Ira Fishman]

I agree with Jerry about the first hole. It seemed gimmicky.


Other negatives:


The greens at number 5 and 6 felt out of proportion to the holes. Yes, they provide multiple pin locations, but the size is overdone.


The course lost energy from numbers 9-11 and perhaps even including 12. A series of only okay holes with little in the way of interesting shots. And we were playing a brisk round so it was not the pace of play.


Positives:


Number 4 pulls off very severe bunkering. The gaping bunker short right forces your eye left even though that is where the real danger exists.


Number 8 uses the centerline bunker to force a difficult choice and then the hole swings up to a green complex that provides challenges from any angle plus an unusual interior green contour.


Numbers 13-18 a varied finish even with two Par 5s each of which presents different challenges for the second (or in my case third) shots. 16 is a sneaky good Par 3 with the bunkering right and the green angling ultimately up and away from the open left entrance. Cresting the hill at 18 is a sight I hope to get to see again.


Ira

[Ted Sirbaugh]

I am a big fan of Streamsong Blue and it is comfortably my favorite on the property. I'll start by getting criticisms out of the way:

I agree with Jerry that the opening tee shot on top of the dune feels forced, and while 7 is certainly a dramatic looking hole, I'm not sure I find it that interesting to play.

Additionally - after playing the course for the first time, I left feeling like too many of the tee shots were dictated by centerline bunkers and that it became repetitive. I realized there are actually only three holes where this is really the case. However, it is three par-4s in a row (6,8,11). Each hole is great on it's own, but I wish they were spaced throughout the round.

Onto the positives - it is perhaps the only Doak course I've played where I'd say the strongest holes are also the longest holes. 16 is awesome and my favorite par-3 on the course (maybe on the property). You can utilize the slope to try and feed your ball onto to the green, but leaving it out left creates a tough recovery shot. The contrast between the bunkering on the right and fairway on the left reminds me of 17 at Royal Melbourne West.

18 is another where you want to use the slopes and land a low shot just over the cross bunkers 50 yards short then watch it run up, but the small bunker 20 yards short is perfectly positioned and plays twice its size.

The other long hole that sticks out is 11. I love the contours on and around the green, which create a lot of interest in both the approach and recovery shots. There's a trend with each of these long holes, in that there is plenty of short grass to kick your ball in different directions.

It wouldn't be a Doak course without great short par-4s, and I think 6 is the highlight. The centerline bunker leaves you with endless options off the tee, and I'm still unsure which option is the best. Plus I'm a big fan of the green's movements and the way it sits against the base of the dune.

Other highlights include the tumbling fairway on 2, the heroic approach on 4 with a fittingly tame greensite, and the second shot on 17.

[Jason Topp]

1.  I like the climb for the tee shot.  It gives you a sense of place.  This is not a natural site but the remnants of a phosphorus mine.   Hole has always felt a bit cramped and underwhelming after that.   Somewhat odd to hit a partially blind pitch to a relatively flat green. 


2.  Love this hole.  The angle of the fairway tempts an aggressive line off the tee.   It’s downhill fairway makes you feel like an opportunity exists but it can bite you quickly.


3. Pot bunker in fairway is perfectly place right where you would otherwise bail out and difficulty of green makes you want to be left rather than right.


4.   A real ball buster of a hole for me.   I think I like it but my thought mainly is to hit it as hard as I can in hopes of reaching in two.  If there is subtelty to the hole, I have likely missed it.


5.  I have had different impressions on different rounds.  Tough to control an aerial shot in heavy wind to a green angled left to right.  Have had some nasty short game shots from the left and the right but at 120 yards or so, that seems appropriate. 


6.  I loved this hole at first thinking it was a very fun reachable par 4.  With repeat play, the tee shot became less interesting.  I keep it left.   Shot into the green is fun and requires some experience to know what you face. 


7.  Green is a bit too severe for my skill set.   I recall what I thought was a decent shot running into scrub left which left a bad taste.  I now play for the middle and hope for the best. 


8.  I hate walking back on the bridge to get to the tee.  I always wondered about a tee around the back of 7, which I know creates a crossover issue with the red.  Hole itself is very difficult but very good.  Looking at the aerial, it looks similar to 3 but I do not recall feeling that on the course.


Also - I did not realize how many elevated greens are on the front side. We have four of them so far.   


9.  Lovely par 5.   The fairway is as wide as one could imagine but in wind I still feel pressure to hit an accurate tee shot.   Green is more difficult to hit than one would think, even with a wedge.   I recall a lot of shots running long.   


Strength of front side for me are the par 5s.   Par threes are a bit controversial which is probably a good thing.   Par 4s are more similar than one would think, with a number of longer holes and uphill approaches.   Wind provides a lot of variety. 


I will weigh in on the back some other time. 

[Jason Topp]

I guess that time is now.


10 - I am a big fan.  Not a dramatic hole but fully challenges iron play, particularly with wind.


11 - I am not a fan.  Clearing the bunkers off the tee is not an option for me and squeezing it left is probably not the right option because the gap is too narrow.   If I bail right then I just slug a three wood as far as I can because I cannot identify any advantage from any particular position because of the severe undulations on the green.  I know the green is modeled on 13 at Prestwick and designed to reward length but give us short guys a chance to make up a shot by recognizing our limitations and playing within them.   This is a par 5 for me.   


12.  I love this hole.  The tee shot is doable but enough is out there to make you choose your line and execute.  Severe two tier green is totally unique on the property and it is a thrill to get the shot right.  I like that the water is not really in play unless you really screw up - which I have done multiple times.


13.  I think I like this hole and the use of the slope to the left as a hazard.   A player can benefit by playing within his limitations but there is a chance for glory if everything goes right.   I am hoping to get one back from the long hitter after 11.


14.  Great par 5.  Incredibly wide fairway but you want to bit off as much as you can off the tee in the right conditions.  2nd shot is really interesting regardless of where you are trying to hit it and the green seems right for this hole. 


15.  Aerial looks different than I remember the hole.   The approach shot needs to account for some crazy green slopes but to me the slopes make sense for this hole. 


16. I am a fan of interesting long par 3s and this is one of my favorites.  It has a bit of a redan feel to it.  One of my favorite shots I have hit was an 8 iron explosion shot from 50 yards or so into a heavy wind that wound up in a decent spot.   On that day the hole was a par four form early everyone.


17.  This hole is all about getting over the cross bunkers on the second.   Usually that is out of reach for me, leaving a 170 yard approach to a difficult green.   I wish there were an option to sneak it through.   


18 Really fun, really difficult closer that provides interest on each shot even if played as a three shot hole.   


I like the par threes better on the back, think the par fives are one for two and prefer the variety of the par fours on this side.   


The finish is tough, even with a helping wind and murder into a wind.   I recall feeling beaten up at the finish more than once.


Overall a compelling experience that reflects its location.  I have always played it in January or February and the semi dormant grass is ideal at that time of year.  I wonder if it loses something when it greens up in warmer weather. 

[Mike Sweeney]

The finish is tough, even with a helping wind and murder into a wind.   I recall feeling beaten up at the finish more than once.


Overall a compelling experience that reflects its location.  I have always played it in January or February and the semi dormant grass is ideal at that time of year.  I wonder if it loses something when it greens up in warmer weather.

I found myself agreeing with almost all of Jason's review, and found Joe's pictorial to be a helpful reference as it has been a few years since I visited Streamsong:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/StreamsongBlue/index.html?


I played SS mainly in the winter, but did a Labor Day trip one year and The Blue was still compelling, to me. SS Black opened after our Disney and Mountain Lake-era ended, so in the 10 Round test of Central Florida, I would play:

• 4 SS Blue
• 3 Mountain Lake (but the best Member course of all)
• 2 SS Red
• 1 World Woods PB - I know it is beaten up now and needs a new owner, but a very good and fun course in its day...

[Tom_Doak]

Come on, guys, this is your big chance to redeem yourselves for griping about the price of hot dogs a few years ago.  Don't make me dig up that thread!   


Since the first hole has come up several times, I will address that question.  I have always thought of it as Jason described it -- it immediately makes the point that you are somewhere unusual.  I don't see that as a gimmick.


I honestly don't remember where the idea came from to put a tee up there; I think Bill Coore must have had it on one of his plans, because I don't remember having the idea myself.  I used to go and climb that dune first thing every morning when I was on site, to remind myself what we were asking of people, but I always assumed they would shuttle groups up to the first tee, and I wonder how much of the negativity is related to people having to climb up. 


When we worked on expanding the plan from 18 holes to 36, other holes started crowding that corridor on all sides, so we were kind of locked into playing the direction we do.  On that line, the hole really couldn't be much longer or the green would go over the top of the hill and make a blind first hole.  So, we really needed the length of being up on the dune.  It's 325 yards to the middle of the green from the top, but only 280 from the bottom, and you can't see the target very well from below, so that was only a good option for players who have no chance to reach the green. 


There is no chance to move the tee low and left without people being in danger from the 18th hole [and possibly going up #18 to play #1, which would be even more dangerous].  There was one plan Bill had done with a blind tee shot from near the 19th hole, over the corner of the dune where the tee is now, and we did consider that as a possibility -- but ultimately decided it was too strong of a statement for the first hole!


I like the fact that it is a short drive and pitch hole, but a tricky pitch.  In that sense it reminded me of the first hole at Lost Dunes, which is one of my favorite openers on any of my courses.

[Ira Fishman]

Tom,


I guess that people not in the business still are not willing to be too directly critical. I voted for SS Blue of the three I have played because as you note Old Mac was a collaboration and because I do not have an adequate vocabulary to express my negatives about Pac Dunes which generally center on the Par 3s (except for 17).


SS Blue is great course, but my points above express where it does fall short for me. It reminds of a novel that is a bit choppy until a very strong finish. I do hope others will take up your invitation to chime in with pros and cons.


Ira

[John Foley]

Tom


When in the process was the clubhouse location decided and how much of both your & C&C's routing was locked due to that?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom

When in the process was the clubhouse location decided and how much of both your & C&C's routing was locked due to that?

I don't remember discussing any other clubhouse location.  Bill's 18-hole plans had all assumed that location, so I just took it as a done deal; the access to the site did not provide many other options, really.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - I can't comment but I had a question:
You've mentioned on here before that one of the differences between you and Bill is that he tends to use (and solve problems with) fill, while you tend to use cuts.
With Bill having done the first routings, did you encounter many situations (and more than you normally would when routing on your own) that called for 'fills' instead of 'cuts'?

[JMEvensky]

I don't know if it's doable, but I'm curious about some things you decided NOT to do. For whatever reason, did anything end up on the editing room floor?

[John Foley]

Tom

When in the process was the clubhouse location decided and how much of both your & C&C's routing was locked due to that?

I don't remember discussing any other clubhouse location.  Bill's 18-hole plans had all assumed that location, so I just took it as a done deal; the access to the site did not provide many other options, really.

Thanks. Are you planning to get in the routing and development and what C&C did in a future volume of getting to 18? I find that is a fascinating story.

[John Kavanaugh]

I find the first tee of the red and blue to be a little congested for my taste. I once had to carry my bag up to the first tee of the blue to find my caddie waiting for me. I'll alway try to book the black on a day trip for this reason and this reason only. I love their little secluded clubhome.

[Tom_Doak]

 Are you planning to get in the routing and development and what C&C did in a future volume of getting to 18? I find that is a fascinating story.

Assuming that I write another volume someday, yes, but I think that is several years off at this point.  Books are hard, and putting together that one took a couple of years of my spare time.  I've not written one word of a next volume.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom - I can't comment but I had a question:
You've mentioned on here before that one of the differences between you and Bill is that he tends to use (and solve problems with) fill, while you tend to use cuts.
With Bill having done the first routings, did you encounter many situations (and more than you normally would when routing on your own) that called for 'fills' instead of 'cuts'?

Actually, it wound up that there were a couple of places where I wanted to make big cuts, and Bill wanted to make a big fill, so I gave him the dirt he needed!  We moved a lot of earth from the left side of 13 Blue to the tees on 15 Red.  Interestingly, though, both Bill and Ben commented at the opening that the 13th was the one hole on the Blue course that turned out way better than they'd expected.  [For me, on the Red course, those holes were 9, 16, and 17.]


I had never really thought about whether the green sites I inherited from one of Bill's plans were conceived with the idea of fill or not.  Off the top of my head, we didn't have to take fill to any of them.  A couple were high spots that I lowered, maybe more than Bill would have?

[Dave Duevel]

Tom,


Not so much a criticism; just a question. With regards to #7, did you have any concerns with the full carry over water and the potential for a log-jam at that hole?

[Kalen Braley]

Never been to Florida, much less played it so thought I would follow along on Google Earth.  Here is a screenshot of the 1st.


The top of the dune is approx. 60 feet higher than the lowest part of 1st the fairway..

[Kalen Braley]

The approach to 4 from 150 yards.  The green is roughly 25 feet higher from that spot in the fairway.

[Kalen Braley]

There is no chance to move the tee low and left without people being in danger from the 18th hole [and possibly going up #18 to play #1, which would be even more dangerous].  There was one plan Bill had done with a blind tee shot from near the 19th hole, over the corner of the dune where the tee is now, and we did consider that as a possibility -- but ultimately decided it was too strong of a statement for the first hole!

The approx. view of the blind tee shot on 1 if it had been built, (which if you had Tom, some may have accused you of ripping off the 1st tee shot at BlackMesa!) 

[Tom_Doak]

The approach to 4 from 150 yards.  The green is roughly 25 feet higher from that spot in the fairway.

25 feet uphill on an approach shot is really nothing, there are tons of holes like that.  But in Florida it seems like a mountain!  And that, of course, is why we built that hole.