Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue

[Jim Franklin]

The tee shot on #8 seems to defy my understanding on what to do with any kind of wind, which is kind of awesome and also very frustrating because that hole can totally ruin your round and in a way that just reaches out and grabs you. 

And 17 and 18 are just too long for a resort course finish where a large percentage of golfers playing the course in winter haven’t played golf in months and will finish like dogs on that last 3/4 mile back to the clubhouses.

I typically don't build hard finishes and the one time I do, this is what I get! 

When I go back to my old ways and I'm criticized for not making a challenging finish, I'm blaming you, James.

I thought Ballyneal 17 and 18 was a pretty tough finish too, so I don't think you're in bad shape. 

P.S.  Pac Dunes is no cake walk either..

Kalen -

Are there any two hole finishing stretches that you don't find difficult? 

Damn it Jim....shhhh!    But yes that's probably a short list.

17 and 18 at Ballyneal are quite long and if I recall correctly the fairway on 17 was a hogsback.  But supposedly the prevailing wind is from the Southwest, which would certainly have helped, as the day I was out there with Andy it was dead still.  And i'm not the only one who thinks PD 18 is tough, although 17 may just be me cause i can't work the ball right to left to save my life.

It's all good brother. That trip we did many moons ago was one of the most fun golfing trips I have been on. Hope you are well.

[James Brown]

I have a question that is quasi-architectural:


When building the Blue/Red combination of courses, did you anticipate that Blue would end up being ranking second on site on the major lists and was there point in the decision process where you could have done something differently with the split of the land that would have reversed the outcome? 


I have read all the various published discussions of how Streamsong turned out the way it did, but don’t recall reading anything before about whether there was discussion about building one blockbuster course and then a B side course, somewhat similar to a model like Whistling Straits.


I ask this because I think the multiple top course model that’s out there now at lots of places will only continue and this challenge will come up over and over.  And I don’t think the Golden Age guys faced it, with few exceptions like Sunningdale.

[Tom_Doak]

I have a question that is quasi-architectural:

When building the Blue/Red combination of courses, did you anticipate that Blue would end up being ranking second on site on the major lists and was there point in the decision process where you could have done something differently with the split of the land that would have reversed the outcome? 

I have read all the various published discussions of how Streamsong turned out the way it did, but don’t recall reading anything before about whether there was discussion about building one blockbuster course and then a B side course, somewhat similar to a model like Whistling Straits.

I've never had a client who wanted a "B side" course.  Even at Stonewall, when I asked whether it would be okay to build something like Merion West for the second 18, and there was no pressing commercial reason to compete with the first course, the response was no, it's got to be a course on equal footing.  I don't think any of these resorts want to have to start balancing play by charging different rates for the different courses.


Bill and I did our best to make the two courses pretty even in terms of the land they got, and as I've mentioned before, neither one of us wanted to choose which course to do, because we didn't want the other guy to say he got the short straw.  I didn't think I did.  Could we have made the split more lop-sided?  Maybe, but the client wanted two great courses, so you don't handicap one vs. the other.  Once I had my own site to focus on, I didn't think about competing with Bill and Ben, I only tried to make our course as good as I could make it.  And our client Rich Mack didn't act like we were competing against one another, either; he did his best on every visit to make us all feel like part of the same team.


But, building two courses at once is a fundamentally different situation from having the other course already there in front of you, and analyzing it for things you can do differently.  I thought a fair amount about that when building Pacific Dunes, and again for Old Macdonald . . . I was REACTING to the other courses that were in place, at the same time I was trying to make best use of my own site.  Lots of great art is done as a reaction to something else.


The expectation that there can be a lot of new resorts with multiple top-100 courses is pretty laughable.  It isn't that easy to build a course that's ranked that high!  There may be more places that try, but there won't be many more that succeed -- or else they will succeed at the expense of some of the existing ones.  They aren't likely to knock Sunningdale and Royal Melbourne off the list.

[Michael Whitaker]

First, let me say that if I had the money to build a golf course Tom Doak would probably be my first call. I've played around 15 of his courses (or his associate's), on three different continents, and I'm a BIG fan. I've played Streamsong Blue at least a half dozen times.


SB is a resort course. As such, it should be different in playability than one of Tom's private courses, like Ballneal for example. At a course like Ballyneal you can offer quirky humps and bumps, or hidden features, because repeated play will reveal the best way to tackle those challenges. At a public resort course I think those kinds of features should be kept to a minimum.


SB is a tough course for the average golfer to score on. But, all of Tom's courses are tough. He seems to take pride in offering 4.5-par holes. He's said many times that a par-4 doesn't have to be two shots and two putts... it can be three shots and one putt. Which is fine for me, because I don't usually care what score I shoot. I've gotten over that as I've gotten older. I enjoy Doak courses because they are intelligent, well thought out puzzles that keep one entertained and engaged from start to finish.


I like SB a lot! I could go through a hole-by-hole critique as others have done, but my only "complaint" about this course... and, I could say the same thing about most (if not all) of the Doak courses I have played... is that too many times, for my taste, one is asked to hit a shot to a target above one's head. It seems to me that giving the option, Tom will nearly always choose an uphill target for a shot rather than not. It seems to be a consistent theme. This makes his courses play tougher than they look, or measure.


For example... and, I've had this discussion with Tom in the past on this website... #14 at SB. It is quite a climb up the hill IMO. Especially coming were it does in the round. In a past post on GCA Tom said that there is only a small increase in elevation from the tee to the green... but that does not take into consideration where the second shots are played from, which is in a depression.


I have purchased "Getting to 18," but I have not had a chance to seriously delve into it. Am I crazy... which is probably a yes  ... or, are elevated golf shots a "thing" with Tom Doak?


There are only two greens on the course I take issue with. I'm not a highly skilled ball striker, but I can putt with the best of them, and #5 and #11 are two of the few Doak greens that I would start over. Way too tricky. Especially for a resort course that most players will only see on a rare occasion. #5 with its severe (and hidden) double tier is too over the top for a resort course... and, #11 is just too bizarrely tricky in a gravity defying way. Because you can create something this clever doesn't always mean you should. Just sayin'.

[Tom_Doak]

There are only two greens on the course I take issue with. I'm not a highly skilled ball striker, but I can putt with the best of them, and #5 and #11 are two of the few Doak greens that I would start over.

Those are two of the greens that are downhill or flat, and you don't like them, either!   


I understand your take that a resort course should be less taxing, and I agree in part:  I don't want to dumb it down and eliminate features that golfers may not "get" the first time around, but usually I would make the course on the short side to balance that.  However that is not what our client kept asking for!


To your other query, I certainly don't go out of my way to look for uphill shots into greens.  I may wind up with more of them than some other designers because I'm trying not to walk uphill from green to tee all day, but at Streamsong it's noteworthy that those were also green sites that Bill Coore liked . . . the only ones I moved from our agreed-upon routing were the 7th and 17th.  Maybe you like my other courses better because Bill was not involved in them!   

[Michael Whitaker]

I like #5, just think it’s too unusual for a resort.


#11 baffles me. Putts seem to defy gravity there. I’ve three-putted (or worse!) there more than any green I can remember. It just baffles me. You say it’s flat, but something unusual is going on there.


Please don’t get me wrong... I really like SB and have enjoyed every visit.


I’d rather walk uphill to a tee on occasion than to constantly have to hit shots over my head. 

[Kalen Braley]

I'm a bit surprised to see so many grievances about the 11th green.  I would have thought building a green with that much deception and gravity hill effects would be a badge of honor that an architect would aspire to and GCA aficionados appreciate.  But maybe its just me...Pasa 16 remains the coolest green I've seen in person and played!

[Tom_Doak]

I'm a bit surprised to see so many grievances about the 11th green.  I would have thought building a green with that much deception and gravity hill effects would be a badge of honor that an architect would aspire to and GCA aficionados appreciate.  But maybe its just me...Pasa 16 remains the coolest green I've seen in person and played!

Luckily for me, it's not just you.  But I also know people who dislike 16 at Pasatiempo. 


We will never please everybody, but that's not really the goal.

[Will Lozier]

It felt like a public version of Friar's Head....but didn't feel mind-blowing the way Tobacco Road, Bandon, Sweetens/Lookout Mountain, and NGLA felt.

Drew,


I rearranged two of your statements to make the above sentence. I would think a public version of Friar's Head would easily rank in the same category as Tobacco Road, Sweetens AND Lookout? I think you have Bandon and NGLA in the wrong category.


Cheers

[Will Lozier]

I typically don't build hard finishes and the one time I do, this is what I get! 

You asked for it! 

[Tim Martin]

I wanted to preface my comments with the fact that I didn’t vote but wanted to add to something that Tom said at the beginning of the thread regarding the 1st hole. He mentioned that he thought that there would be some type of shuttle to get people up to the tee and that seems like a good idea. I thought of the chair lift that brings you up to the clubhouse when you play the 18th as a par four at Manufacturers and you could come from the back or side if necessary. I didn’t want to come on and say something negative because I like the hole and the golf course. It’s a fun opening tee shot to hit.

[Michael Whitaker]

Tim - I like the opening tee shot as well... it is fun! And, I don't mind the climb up to the tee as it is the first "effort" of the day. No worries. Being able to grab a club and head up the hill is OK with me.


Now, if this climb was on the 16th hole (like it is at Cape Kidnappers  ) I'd take issue.

[Tom_Doak]

I wanted to preface my comments with the fact that I didn’t vote but wanted to add to something that Tom said at the beginning of the thread regarding the 1st hole. He mentioned that he thought that there would be some type of shuttle to get people up to the tee and that seems like a good idea. I thought of the chair lift that brings you up to the clubhouse when you play the 18th as a par four at Manufacturers and you could come from the back or side if necessary. I didn’t want to come on and say something negative because I like the hole and the golf course. It’s a fun opening tee shot to hit.

We've actually discussed having a set of steps going up the back side of the slope, diagonally, so it's not so steep.  I think that would be a much cooler way to get up there, both for the view on the way up and the "reveal" when you get to the top.

[Tom_Doak]

Now, if this climb was on the 16th hole (like it is at Cape Kidnappers  ) I'd take issue.

There is no climb to the tee on the 16th at Cape Kidnappers . . . unless you took the cart path to the base of the hill, instead of the beautiful footpath along the edge of the world from 15 green.  I really hope you didn't miss that.

[Michael Whitaker]

Now, if this climb was on the 16th hole (like it is at Cape Kidnappers  ) I'd take issue.

There is no climb to the tee on the 16th at Cape Kidnappers . . . unless you took the cart path to the base of the hill, instead of the beautiful footpath along the edge of the world from 15 green.  I really hope you didn't miss that.

What??? Where is this:

[Michael Whitaker]

There IS a GREAT view from up there!

[Daryl David]

Now, if this climb was on the 16th hole (like it is at Cape Kidnappers  ) I'd take issue.

There is no climb to the tee on the 16th at Cape Kidnappers . . . unless you took the cart path to the base of the hill, instead of the beautiful footpath along the edge of the world from 15 green.  I really hope you didn't miss that.

What??? Where is this:

Michael,
Take a look at Google Earth and you will see the footpath from 15 green to 16 tee.

https://earth.app.goo.gl/5uHhyS

[Kalen Braley]

Google Earth is a littly wonky on the rendering for this part of the course.  #15 would be far more interesting if it actually looked like this! 

[Michael Whitaker]

I was there in 2011 and I guess the path was definitely there then? If yes, then well, sorry I missed that path!    I played the course alone, walking, and never saw that route. Too bad for me. Those stairs were a bitch!

[Michael Whitaker]

I see the path in one of my photos from the 16th tee. Geez... I'm REALLY sorry I missed that walk!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Robert Giuffra]

Mr Doak,
I am a big fan of Streamsong Blue.  The course is fantastic, especially the closing four holes.  My only criticism would be the trees left of the 9th green. These trees slow down play and don’t add much to this otherwise terrific hole. Removing them would open up the view.


Best, Robert

[Tom_Doak]

Mr Doak,
I am a big fan of Streamsong Blue.  The course is fantastic, especially the closing four holes.  My only criticism would be the trees left of the 9th green. These trees slow down play and don’t add much to this otherwise terrific hole. Removing them would open up the view.


Best, Robert

Hi Robert:


I left the trees thinking they would make a big hitter think twice about just bombing the second shot down toward the 10th tee.  Do they really slow down play that much?

[Robert Giuffra]

Mr. Doak
I am not a that long of a hitter to think about how those trees may block out a long hitter from hitting the green on 9. The trees do tend to slow down play, especially if you are in a group with some bad players. I have seen some players hit it left into those trees and take many shots to get out.  You could put a sandy waste area there, which would keep the penalty for hitting left and open up the vista.
Thanks for replying, I love the Blue and have played it many times.
Best,
Robert

[Mike Hendren]

This has been a very insightful thread as I left Streamsong feeling a bit underwhelmed with both (at that time) courses.  That's a little embarrassing to admit based upon the excellent insights others are offering.  I know I should muster some defense of that sentiment but am simply not up to it.  I should also fess up that I was comped as a magazine rater back then.  I suspect the Blue in particular is quite nuanced with much more there than meets the eye during a single round.  I do applaud Tom for a course that, while not minimalist, is as minimalist as that site would allow.   


This thread is quite educational.  Thanks.


Bogey

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I had the opportunity to play Blue a few years ago and see a lot of Red from a cart.  I do not believe Black was finished when I was there (February 2018).


My observation is Blue is very understated; Red has a little more of the "Wow" factor to it in terms of the bunkering; to me, seemed more "in your face" in terms of the challenge, Blue was more of a quiet challenge.  You still have to hit the shots.