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Ronald Montesano

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Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« on: March 14, 2021, 11:18:08 PM »
Down the rabbit hole we go, into the wonderland of serious criticism.

Cherry Hill Club, in Ontario, is a Walter J. Travis golf course. First, the set-up:

The majority of the golf course lies below a mild escarpment. The 9th hole climbs the escarpment (par three uphill, like the 9th at Crystal Downs) and the 10th hole runs gently down it. 16 holes lie on a flat expanse.

There are three long holes: six, twelve, and eighteen. There are four short holes: five, nine, eleven, and sixteen. The rest are intermediate. Only one of the intermediate holes (the first) can be considered drivable.

There is something about Cherry Hill's greens, that makes every single putt a thought-provoking adventure. They break/run fast toward Buffalo, which is to say, to the east, is the easiest way to reveal them. If Buffalo is uphill, the putt will still be fast. Some say it is the influence of the escarpment, which lies at the western margin of the course. Others say they have no idea, and they don't wish to overthink it.

After Travis, the course was Robbie-Robinsoned and then Ian Andrewed, which brought it back to what Travis had envisioned. Here's a bit more on the golf course.

The first three holes are slight doglegs left. I do mean slight. If you recall them, you might be forgiven for saying that each of them played straight. There is a straight and fairway line from tee to green, but it is protected by some hazard (sand on one and two, trees on three.) One runs north; two to the east, three to the south. You get the idea. Play the first three in twelve and you are able to flex quickly. Greens one and two have high backs but, since two runs to the east, the greens runs FAST to the back.

The fourth is a stern dogleg left. You can't play down the left, but you cannot go too far right, either. The green almost demands a run-up shot, to avoid sand right and fall-off left. Also runs to the south.

Five is the most challenging improvement made by Andrew. Pond front and right eliminates that side of the green. Andrew shaved the left side, so if you bail that way to avoid the agua, you will find yourself with a recovery putt/bump/chip/pitch that runs ... you guessed it-eastward toward the water and FAST.

Six is as stern a dogleg left as was four. Problem with it is, you need to cut the corner if you are a long hitter, or play three-metal at the bunkers right if you are not. The second shot tempts you into playing three-metal, which you should not, unless you are one of the best. Get the ball inside of 150 for your third and play for par. Why? Seven is the same par hole, but nearly 100 yards shorter. It plays to the south, opposite the sixth, which played northward.

Eight is a stern intermediate hole, with a green that is much thinner than your mid-iron approach wants it to be. Water left, bunkers right, and that's the drive zone! Sand left and right at the green. It's a bear. Nine is even tougher. The only saving grace is, the big tree left in the valley died twelve years ago, so you can recover is you miss left of the left guarding bunker. Right is another bunker, and long is long grass or trees. Front is false, so your ball comes back down the slope. Yikes!

Front Nine Summary: There isn't a weak hole on the side, but there are weak shots. The tee shots on four and six do not provide options for all golfers. Nine usually feels like an all-or-nothing tee/approach shot. The greens are all puttable, if not always approachable.

What I would like to see on the front nine at Cherry Hill: I would like to see long (as at St. Andrews) be an option. The fifth and eight holes have soooo much difficulty short and adjacent to the greens, that it would be quite brazen of the course to say Hit it long and pitch it back to front, and we shall reward you. Honestly, other than the Old Course, who else does this? A man can dream.

Ten drapes down a gentler slope than the one that nine ascends. The green has three bunkers but, believe this! The long approach shot is actually beneficial. The hole runs south. Eleven is a death trap, a suicide rap, as The Boss might call it. The green is shoved so high toward the sky, that if you hit it, you're not certain that you meant to. A pair of deep bunkers angle away from front-center, but a runner is not an option. The ball must be tossed high in the sky, and descend like a pregnant robin. It's a tough, tough hole, and the one that birdie-makers brag about at hole the nineteenth.

Twelve is a great driving hole if you can move the ball from left to right. There is a water on the right, and you want to play back toward, it, not hit a slider away from it. Why? There is thick rough on the left. Just aim at the bunkers left and slide gently rightward. Repeat for your second shot, and you might find yourself aboard the putting surface with your second. This is the first hole since number two to run purely east. Watch how fast a front-to-back putt is. Thirteen is neither long nor short, although it tends toward the later. Play more left than right, and you'll have a perfect look at the green. The green is elevated, although not as much as eleven. You must get past those front bunkers in the air; there is no room for a run-up. This is the second consecutive hole to run purely east. Watch that first putt.

Fourteen is the most demanding, intermediate hole. The creek some forty yard shy of the green was tubed a decade ago, so less-than-perfect approach shots live to fight another day. If you're a par thinker, play this one a shot above what the card says, and you'll be happy with your execution. The fairway is the widest on the course in the drive zone, and you'll need it.

I'm not certain how old the pond is on fifteen. I wish it weren't there. It shrinks the drive zone, and takes away any ingenuity from the hole. It dominates play, and exhibits zero subtlety. The green is very good but, unless you've played your tee ball to the edge of the right-side fairway bunker (but not in) and then played your short iron over the pond's finger in front of the green, you're clotting the wound.

Sixteen is brilliant. A flat volcano. The green is essentially at tee level, but the bunkering convinces you to hit your pitch shot farther than necessary. You need to barely clear the front bunker, not conquer it. If you do the later, you have a heck of a downhill putt, although it is slower than expected because you're rolling it westward. Simply briliant.

The closing pair are daunting. Seventeen was strengthened by Andrew, with a deeper, back tee, and six well-place bunkers. It used to be a birdie opportunity before the closer, but now is not nearly so manageable. It does have a spectacular green, nearly the best on the back nine. It's not, because ...

The eighteenth is indomitable. It climbs gently and unceasingly to the foot of the escarpment. You must challenge the inside bunkers to have a shot at reaching home in two ... and that's only if you combine all-world driving with all-world fairway metal play. If not, do like you did on number six and target inside of 150 in two. You HAVE to be on this green in no more than three, because it is something like what MacKenzie did at Sitwell Park. It is the type of green that members and guests return to often, especially when there is no one coming up the fairway. They do it for bragging rights, for fun, for bemusement.

Back Nine Summary: The back nine is more erratic than the front side. This is not a criticism. You play Intermediate-short-long, then long-intermediate-long-intermediate-short-intermediate-long on the inward half; contrast this with four consecutive intermediates to start the front, followed by short-long-intermediate-intermediate-short, and you understand. It's harder to develop a rhythm on the second side, than it is on the first. If you close strong at Cherry Hill, you probably win the day.

What I would like to see on the back nine at Cherry Hill: To begin, the removal of the pond on fifteen. It makes the hole a throwaway. You want to survive it and move on. Hmmm...that's it. The rest of the nine is incredibly good for a nearly-flat circuit.

Worst holes: On the front nine, the sixth. The drive is too restricted, but that is due to modern technology. On the back nine, the fifteenth-same problem, but due to the pond, not the technology.

Best Holes: On the front nine, the third. Why? That green. It falls from front to back. If you go long to a front pin, you have a fifty-feet putt coming back. If you get too cute, you get stuck in a bunker, with a difficult recovery. On the back nine, number ten. It's so sublime, but the green is incredibly receptive.

Would expanded, drive-zone width make Cherry Hill weaker or stronger? It would make it stronger. The bunkers at the greens would still threaten shots from the margins, but many greens would offer more landing room (if you clear the sand) from the wings.

Do the greens suffer from shrinkage? No. They were returned to their full size by Andrew and, with the exception of the eleventh, and perhaps the fifth, offer all golfers a chance at holding the surface in regulation figures.

Run-Up limitations? The 13th (inexplicable rough between the front bunkers), 15th (finger of water) and 16th (moat bunker) are the three blockages. The other 15 holes allow traditional, bounce-it-in approach shots.

What ruins the course? Precisely what many of the members love: shaved greens. There is a masochism (not unique to this club) among some members that suggests that uber-fast greens are the truest test. Certainly they are a test, but they come at a cost to the recovery of the course, and they elevate the putting game to at least the level of the tee-and-approach game.

[What makes the course? Mowing width, tree removal, bunker restovation, brilliant and wicked Travis greens.]



If you have thoughts on how this critique of the golf course might have been expanded/improved, feel invited to DM/PM me with your thoughts.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 09:17:06 PM by Ronald Montesano »
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Jason Lietaer

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2021, 01:17:41 AM »
What a great post. I've had the good fortune to spend a lot of time at Cherry Hill with friends the last few years, and you've nailed most of the course. Your memory didn't fail you...


First things first: Cherry Hill is as flat a (good) golf course as I've ever played. Ron's description was accurate but I think it almost feels like he overstates the "escarpment". Number nine (a long part 3) goes up about 25 or 30 feet to a false front. Number 10 falls about the same amount, mostly before you reach the forward tees. That's it.  There are no other hills.  It's one of the easiest walks in golf.  You walk off the green and the next tee is within a stone's throw.  It's a walker's paradise.


Second: it's firm and fast.  I don't know of a parkland course in Canada that plays as firm and fast. Outside of Cabot, there are not many places where you need yardages to the front rather than the pin. You need them at Cherry Hill. There are at least 4-5 greens where you **must** hit the ball to the front and let it run back, especially on those which run east.  People on this site want firm and fast -- you get it in spades at Cherry Hill.


Third: the greens are lightning. They stimp at least 12 all day everyday. And they are always perfect. I disagree with Ron on the "recovery" options though -- I think there are plenty of options, including on many of them playing a little short to avoid disaster (more on that later)


Fourth: the par 3's a special. Numbers 5, 9 and 11 are seriously hard. 5 has swirling winds, over water with a difficult bail out area on the left. 9 is a brute -- straight uphill and long, with a difficult green to read. It's basically a par 4. 11 is unreal and will have you talking to yourself for weeks after you play it. It's said that when the Canadian Open was played at Cherry Hill in '72, Lee Trevino hit a mid iron to the front edge each and every day, chipping and getting up and down each time to avoid the deep bunkers on each side of the green. The bunkers are a sure bogey for most (or worse)


Fifth: there is room. It's pretty tough to lose a ball on most of the holes. You have to be way off line on most holes. It's pretty much laid out there in front of you.


A few points Ron raised --


The pond on 15: it's in play, but adds a strategic element. From the back tees, it's 225 or so to get into the water.  About half the guys hit a 5 iron, leaving themselves a 160 shot in. The other half hit a 3 wood up the fairway (or into the water) leaving them a little over a hundred yards to a green with really accessible pins.  It's one of the easiest holes to birdie on the course, and yet, I feel like Ron is onto something that the pond is a little pronounced.  I've had more than my share of birdies there but Ron's point has got me thinking: I've never really loved the hole.


the first four holes: very similar shot shapes. They're all slightly different but the same idea (very slight drift left) The first time you play it, they all feel similar until you get to number 5 (long par 3 over water). But upon repeated play, you realize how different each of them are, and number 3 is just outstanding.  As Ron outlined, the green is terrific -- it all runs away from you with a swale in the middle. The pin is usually at the front and requires a shot a little shot and bouncing on (but not too far).  Just so fun.


A comment about strategy...there are a number of important decisions that must be made at Cherry Hill:


             -- whether to hit a driver on 1 to try to get close to the green
             -- how far up 3 to hit your drive and whether you want to challenge the bunkers/trees on the right. You want to be up there to hit a sand wedge in but the landing zone gets pinched
             -- go pin seeking on 5 or bailout left of the green?
             -- whether to challenge the water on 8 or bailout into the football field on the right, leaving you to contend with deep rough and trees
             -- challenge the flag at the par 3 11th or play short like Trevino?
             -- try to bomb one at 13 to leave a short pitch or hit an iron and leave yourself 100-125 yards?
             -- challenge the pond at 15 or not?


Is 7 or so big decisions too few? The right amount? I feel like there's more strategic options at Cherry Hill than most courses I play. And the more I play it, the more I try new things. I guess that's what we're all asking for.


One more thing: I play at a Stanley Thompson/Robbie Robinson course (St Thomas) with **really** wild and fun greens. But there are no less than 7 at Cherry Hill that will have you thinking about them later. Numbers 3, 4, 10, 11, 16, 17 and 18 are outstanding.  Like...go back and hit that putt again outstanding. They're special.


Ron mentioned the "all putts break toward Buffalo" piece. it's interesting -- there's a number of courses along the Niagara escarpment that have similar kinds of putting challenges because of the escarpment (Greystone in Milton, King's Forest in Hamilton, Lookout Point in Fonthill; to name a few) but the escarpment is obvious in each of those cases. It's not even present at Cherry Hill, which is what makes it so difficult. Like an invisible force.


I've come to really love the place. It's the flatest, most boring piece of property I can imagine for a golf course.  Travis' greens are outrageous, and baffling.


For a hole by hole tour: https://www.cherryhillclub.ca/Golf_(1)/Cherry_Hill_Club/1


Preview of the 1972 Canadian Open at Cherry Hill with praise from Trevino in the New York Times:


https://www.nytimes.com/1972/07/06/archives/trevino-is-full-of-fight-for-canada-open-today.html








Tom_Doak

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2021, 11:08:25 AM »
I drove by the entrance to Cherry Hill two or three times on my way from the east coast to Traverse City, back in the days when it was possible to enter Canada.  But I never had a real chance to turn in . . . there was either poor weather or I had a car full of others who would not want me to take an hour to walk the course.  Always felt bad about missing it.

Matt Bosela

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2021, 12:09:52 PM »
Nice work Ron. Always love reading about Canadian courses here, especially those in my backyard.  I hope to get back out to CH sometime this summer...it's always a treat.


Tom_Doak

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2021, 12:39:54 PM »
Ron:


Having just read your critique more thoroughly, if you are presenting it as a possible form, there is only one category I would take issue with:


What [you] would like to see


I've often found when listening to someone talk about a course of mine that they stopped talking about what I had done, and started talking about some pet idea [or pet peeve] of their own that they wished I had done [or hadn't done].  That is not critique; it's the opposite of critique.  So, in this instance, you could say that the green complexes are too repetitive because it's always best to miss short -- which in fact is true of a lot of courses -- or that the pond on the 15th is out of character.


Also, if you're going to have a category about what ruins the course, you ought to at least say what's the best aspect of the course, as well, or what feature of it would make it worth going out of one's way to see.  [You do have some such comments in your preamble.]

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2021, 09:10:40 PM »

I drove by the entrance to Cherry Hill two or three times on my way from the east coast to Traverse City, back in the days when it was possible to enter Canada. 

I want to know why you were off the main drag that is the QEW, that takes you from the Peace Bridge to Hamilton (where you would head toward MI.) It's scenic that way, for sure, going past Long Point and Port Colborne, but not super efficient.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2021, 09:51:53 PM »

I drove by the entrance to Cherry Hill two or three times on my way from the east coast to Traverse City, back in the days when it was possible to enter Canada. 

I want to know why you were off the main drag that is the QEW, that takes you from the Peace Bridge to Hamilton (where you would head toward MI.) It's scenic that way, for sure, going past Long Point and Port Colborne, but not super efficient.




Was the QEW even there 39 years ago, when I first made the drive?  I was going for the shortest distance on the map back then, since I had no knowledge of whether it was fast or slow, and I was on a student budget.


Not sure what sign might have steered me that way, but that's the way I always went.  The only time I've ever been on the QEW was going down to Lookout Point after spending a day with Ian Andrew.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2021, 10:32:32 PM »
Well, I imagine if you were going home to Michigan you would've crossed the border via the Ambassador Bridge between Windsor & Detroit. And if memory serves, there's the Highway 3 that, as you headed west, branched off the 401 and ended at Windsor, passing by Ft Erie -- and Cherry Hill -- on its way. Which is to say: you probably don't remember the QEW because you didn't take it -- instead it was the 401 west to Highway 3 and onto to the border-bridge...unlike Ron who'd be taking the QEW to get to the Peace Bridge and back to Buffalo.
My guess



« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 11:43:09 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2021, 06:31:53 AM »
Judging from the three prior posts, maybe golfers aren't the type to concentrate very long on critical pieces 😎. Maybe photos serve a legit purpose.

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Andrew Harvie

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2021, 12:24:31 PM »
Any criticisms on the limitations on the run up shot or the ground game can most likely be attributed to Travis' overall style and his playing prowess. That's sort of been his MO. Lookout Point actually gets this criticism a lot more, but it's 400 yards shorter so I'm not sure I agree (on either, really, but that's besides the point).


I'm not sure I'd think there's anything wrong with Cherry Hill, especially considering the property given. It's a boring site, without much elevation change (a single hill in the middle by the clubhouse of some 20 feet that the 1st/10th plays off and the 9th/18th play up). It's a darn good golf course given the site, but it'll never be in that "upper tier" of Canadian golf for that. There's only so much one can do with a property that flat on clay!


It is probably the best flat golf course in Canada. I think it's a bit more exciting than Essex, although I wouldn't be offended either way. Once Urbina is done with St. Charles there will be a new contender... it is already in the discussion for me, but it needs a polish and some of the Ross stuff needs to come back.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 12:30:32 PM by Drew Harvie »
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2021, 12:32:37 PM »
Judging from the three prior posts, maybe golfers aren't the type to concentrate very long on critical pieces 😎. Maybe photos serve a legit purpose.



Yes, to be fair, not many have seen the course so it's hard to respond.


I was surprised to see Jason and Drew describe it as flat.  Was it an orchard before it was a golf course?


Also if the property is so flat, how are the greens so difficult?

Jason Lietaer

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2021, 01:33:46 PM »
I looked into it and the course was built on two adjacent farms that were purchased. Makes sense, as most of it looks like old fields or orchards, not cleared forest.


There are a handful of fruit trees on the hill between the clubhouse and the 9th green (sorta in play).  I assume that's the "cherry hill" -- one of the original farms was actually called the "Cherry Hill" farm.


Why are the greens so difficult? The course is flat, the greens are not. Most, but not all, are subtle. There are incredible internal contours that are difficult to read, and as I said, are always fast. Fundamentally, though, I think the answer is the escarpment. It's like an invisible hand pulling your ball around. There's a green on the back nine (number 12; a longish par 5) that looks dead flat or possibly a little back to front.  *Every* first time player hits their shot pin high and it rolls over. They toss their club in the air and give the member a "WTF" look. It's because it's downhill, but impossible to see.  Headed east, downhill toward Buffalo.


Multiply that by 18 (more subtle) versions per round -- that's what makes the course interesting.


Btw -- I agree with Drew. It's most like Essex than any other course in Canada, but I think Cherry Hill is flatter.  And slightly better in my opinion as well.  Can't wait to see St Charles when done.

Guy Nicholson

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2021, 03:51:31 PM »
I only have a couple of rounds in at CHC, but it really is as described here. Easy walk, endlessly challenging -- the kind of course worth moving near to play every day. The Buffalo-based portion of the membership had to stay home last year due to COVID border restrictions, but we played it for a Golf Journalists Association of Canada event in September and it was in stellar shape. The greens absolutely kicked my butt.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2021, 01:57:46 PM »
Tim Horton died on the QEW in 1974. The QEW was there, 39 years ago. Unless you were taking the scenic shore route, past Long Point and and below London, there would be no reason to not be on the QEW, especially given the advantages of speed (those Ontarians LOVE their highways :)


I agree that few have seen the course. It hosted a PGA Canada Tour event three years ago, and the players raved. It was a one-off, unfortunately. If Cherry Hill is longer than Lookout Point, that was probably not the original case. I know quite well a member who had a large say in the addition of a number of tees 10-15 years ago, that lengthened the course a few hundred yards from the tips. They could still go waaayyyy back on 4 and 12, so they might grow more :)
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Ian Andrew

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2021, 08:39:41 PM »
Tom,

The greens are as good as CC of Scranton - yes that good.
The site is a pitched plane - creates illusions - and it does have subtle rolls throughout.
The only feature that most seem to remember is the hill at the clubhouse
It has some created green sites that are quite nice like the one below.


16th from Cherry Hill Club's web site


18th green seen from the back



a slightly different angle for the 18th - devilish upper left tier is more visible from here
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 08:47:00 PM by Ian Andrew »
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Andrew Harvie

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2021, 10:45:20 PM »
Tom,

The greens are as good as CC of Scranton - yes that good.
The site is a pitched plane - creates illusions - and it does have subtle rolls throughout.
The only feature that most seem to remember is the hill at the clubhouse
It has some created green sites that are quite nice like the one below.


16th from Cherry Hill Club's web site


18th green seen from the back



a slightly different angle for the 18th - devilish upper left tier is more visible from here


I have some really good Cherry Hill photos of the green complexes. I'm driving from Alberta back to Toronto this weekend, but when I get there I'll upload a few and post here. The 18th is really, really good. I usually take about 55 photos or so of a golf course... I took over 100 at Cherry Hill just because I wanted to capture the greens!
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Jeremy Broom

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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2021, 10:15:25 PM »
I could not be happier that Mr. Andrew and Mr. Broom made contributions to this thread. Mr. Andrew the architect did work at Cherry Hill over the past ten years, and oversaw the renovation/restoration that included bunkers, tee decks, and perhaps some other elements. Mr. Broom was director of golf before returning to the Mississauga Club.
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Ian Andrew

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2021, 07:58:24 AM »
Ron,


I meant to answer your question on the 13th green.

It was all bunker before. Think 4th at Orchard Park. The break between the two bunkers lets the water off the green, otherwise the front of the green would be dead just about every spring. That decision predates me, but I left the gap between for that reason. It has been fairway before, but that area is too narrow for the traffic and the point where the water stops in the winter will die each spring.


So, there is a concept plan that addresses this. The opening is on the right. We did the work at the back of the green two years ago, removing the long ridge, but not on the front and the right.


I do think it will eventually happen, but not till the next round of tee work at the club.
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Paul Stephenson

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Re: Serious Criticism: Cherry Hill Club
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2021, 01:33:45 PM »
Tim Horton died on the QEW in 1974. The QEW was there, 39 years ago. Unless you were taking the scenic shore route, past Long Point and and below London, there would be no reason to not be on the QEW, especially given the advantages of speed (those Ontarians LOVE their highways :)


I agree that few have seen the course. It hosted a PGA Canada Tour event three years ago, and the players raved. It was a one-off, unfortunately. If Cherry Hill is longer than Lookout Point, that was probably not the original case. I know quite well a member who had a large say in the addition of a number of tees 10-15 years ago, that lengthened the course a few hundred yards from the tips. They could still go waaayyyy back on 4 and 12, so they might grow more :)


It's named after the Queen Mother and she and George VI opened it on their visit.  39 is a good number because I think the visit was in 1939 but I could be off by a few years.  It's been there a long time.