[David Ober]

... putting from well off the green.


Back when I first started watching the game, in the mid to late 80's through early 90s, almost no one putted from off the green. It's crazy how much more you see it now then even 10 years ago.


I was a late adopter, and I probably now putt  from off the green more in one month than I did in an entire year back in the 90s.


Anyone else doing it more now than in the past? Or?

[Tom_Doak]

I have always done this.


But the reason Tour pros do it more is that the mowing heights are so short and tight now.  Twenty or thirty years ago the speed of a putt from well off the green was very difficult to gauge, but not anymore.

[Peter Pallotta]

Interesting. You're a good player, David, while I took up the game late and for a long time wasn't very good at all. I *used* to use a putter from off the green all the time, or at least as often as I possibly could -- mostly because I didn't trust myself to use anything else and putting was the safest option, with middling results but not terrible ones. And all that time I was always slightly embarrassed, because -- as you say -- the pros/good players back then hardly ever used their putters that way, just the hacks like me did. Ironically, nowadays I hardly ever use a putter from off the green, and instead almost always use either a 52 degree wedge or an 8 iron. And, since the pros are now using putters more than ever, I'm *still* the hack who's always slightly embarrassed!
Why I love this game is beyond me. I must be sick in the head.

[Mike_Young]

Also seeing many using hybrids to putt from off green..

[Tom_Doak]

I forgot to mention that thirty years ago, there also wasn't nearly as much short grass around the greens on American courses as there is today.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

They are, even thought they should have been doing this longer.

The reasoning/logic about the lower mowing heights above is mostly the reason why. Plus… in tests I've done (with Tour players) they've putted better than they've chipped for the last 10 years.

But they didn't think they did. Some are starting to see it, though. So the "mostly the reason why" stuff is that they're allowing themselves the possibility, now that the differences between the fringe and the green are smaller than they used to be. IMO.

[Tim Martin]

No one likes putting from off the green more than club caddies.

[David Ober]

No one likes putting from off the green more than club caddies.

So funny, and so true. Caddies everywhere actually. I remember at Bandon when I pulled out my LW a few times, there was snickering. I mostly putted, but definitely used my lob wedge as well.

[V. Kmetz]

No one likes putting from off the green more than club caddies.

So funny, and so true. Caddies everywhere actually. I remember at Bandon when I pulled out my LW a few times, there was snickering. I mostly putted, but definitely used my lob wedge as well.

Amen.. good players or bad... all have got a better chance with a putter

[Mark_Fine]

I learned to putt from off the green playing golf on the links courses in the U.K.  I remember one of my first rounds there back in 1984, my host was 40 yards off the green in the fairway and he would take his putter and knock it stone dead.  Meanwhile when I was about the same distance I was trying to hit some kind of high soft American pitch shot and looking foolish when the wind caught the ball and it rolls off the back    I learned quickly.  Get the ball on the ground fast in the wind and the putter is a great reliable play. 


Years later I recall playing with a caddie at Pinehurst #2 and missing the first green to the side leaving a difficult uphill chip to the perched green.  I looked at my caddie and said, putter!  He smiled and said “you might have a chance today” 

[Carl Johnson]

Also seeing many using hybrids to putt from off green..

Of course it depends on the terrain, but I'll "putt" with a 22 degree hybrid from 40 to 50 yards off the green, though it's taken me a while to get the hang of it, and of course I'm still working on it.

[Thomas Dai]

And players are putting from off the greens so using putters with only circa-3* of loft not 5*-6* which was the norm a few decades ago. Says a lot not just about course set-up but about mower technology, agronomy etc.
Might see more use off-green putting if bunkers didn't have longish, manicured grass collars around them.
atb

[Sean_A]

I forgot to mention that thirty years ago, there also wasn't nearly as much short grass around the greens on American courses as there is today.

And courses were more heavily watered!

Ciao

[David Ober]

I have always done this.

But the reason Tour pros do it more is that the mowing heights are so short and tight now.  Twenty or thirty years ago the speed of a putt from well off the green was very difficult to gauge, but not anymore.

No doubt, Tom. And I'm even doing it now on my "definitely not closely mown" golf course at home. It is so, so difficult to pitch a ball from an uphill, into-the-grain lie on Bermuda grass. Disaster is always lurking, even for the pros. I just put ego aside and one day asked myself: "What would happen if I putted from this spot (15 yards short of the green, uphill, into the grain to a pin 25 feet onto the green)? And, Voila! 3 feet.


But there is a real, potential issue: One of the upsides to chipping instead of putting is that you are constantly using the LW and/or SW "tool." When you commit to putting from off the green more frequently, you use the tool much less often and then when it really is needed you don't have the same level of comfort as you did before falling in love with the "Texas Wedge."


Over the summer and fall when I was still healthy enough to play real golf, I started chipping from places I didn't need to in casual rounds just to reacquaint myself with my little buddy, Mr. low-bounce 60*. He was mad a me for leaving him, and going steady with my putter, but we quickly made up and were back to hitting spinny checkers again in no time. LOL

[jeffwarne]

As "fairway' mowing heights around greens have gotten closer to green heights,there is less reason to do anything but putt. I often tell my amateurs if they were on the green with a 50 footer, they wouldn't consider anything but a putter-so why when only 10 feet off the green on a topdressed,tightly walk mowed, rolled approach would they do anything BUT putt.


So putting from off the green has gotten has gotten significantly easier is one reason you see more of it.
But the real reason is turf is so tight(and often wet to keep it alive)that chipping, pitching and lobbing have become significantly harder.


25 years ago there was too much rough around greens and the trend began to reverse, BUT the real problem is turf height and the overemphasis of fast(often at the expense of firm)
You can measure fast, so it gets all the accolades, but the real victim has been firm, and the complete loss of creativity as we're back to one option at many places.


Years ago Tom putting from off the green was novel and creative.
Now it's pretty much the ONLY play, unless highly skilled, so why bother with the risk if it's easier.
Another area design, redesign, maintenance has over jumped the shark IMHO.


One thing I will say about Palmetto with its older bermuda, overseeded rye turf.
It has some of the most demanding short game shots and green anywhere, but they have the turf the right height and firmness to actually allow there to be a range of options.Yesterday and Friday I played hooked 8 iron runner, putter, 5 wood, L-wedge and basic SW.
The tradeoff is the overseed is a bit shaggy in the fall and we lose the great semi-dormant experience while the overseed is germinating/maturing-but the spring is really good-when dormant bermuda can be really dicey.
Now if we can just keep the turf salesmen away(the billy bunker guys already got us )

[Tom_Doak]

Years ago Tom putting from off the green was novel and creative.
Now it's pretty much the ONLY play, unless highly skilled, so why bother with the risk if it's easier.

Actually after I posted, I realized that I do NOT putt often from off the green anymore.  Today I am much more likely to chip, with my putting stroke, as I also learned to do in the UK, because I've lost confidence in my putter generally [to avoid a certain four-letter word beginning in Y].


Always the contrarian! 

[Carl Rogers]

Tom et al,
Riverfront, at this time of year when the Bermuda is still dormant, the putter works best.  But in the growing season, when Bermuda is too thick and grainy, the chip / pitch works best.

[jeffwarne]

Years ago Tom putting from off the green was novel and creative.
Now it's pretty much the ONLY play, unless highly skilled, so why bother with the risk if it's easier.

Actually after I posted, I realized that I do NOT putt often from off the green anymore.  Today I am much more likely to chip, with my putting stroke, as I also learned to do in the UK, because I've lost confidence in my putter generally [to avoid a certain four-letter word beginning in Y].


Always the contrarian! 

Yikes-long putting yips...


During my earlier rant I forgot to mention how on grainy common bermuda or dormant, poa-ey clumpy spring bermuda , or just hardpan lies with a bit of common ermuda intervening, we used to semi-top the ball with a putter to get it to bounce and tumble over and through the grainy/imperfect, something I also found quite useful in the UK-another reason my putter has 4 plus degrees of loft and I am loathe to switch to these loftless modern putters.Now I've adopted my 5 wood for this.


But then golf was once an outdoor game...the good news is it still is in many, many places.
OT but not completely
the "skate park" analogy from another thread really got me thinking about the conditioning of courses, the routing/adventure etc.
I hate terrain parks-the articiality of rails etc.-though I can see why people find it social and one stop shopping-I just vastly prefer to avoid groomed trails and pick my way well off piste through difficult, yet navigable trees, rocks and terrain-where the best powder stashes last for days.


Way off topic but one of my favorite memories skiing was seeing a visibly exhausted and sweating group of teenagers obviously in over their heads off piste, finally crawl back out onto an actual trail yelling "civilization" as they collapsed.


Different strokes I guess.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Years ago Tom putting from off the green was novel and creative.
Now it's pretty much the ONLY play, unless highly skilled, so why bother with the risk if it's easier.

Actually after I posted, I realized that I do NOT putt often from off the green anymore.  Today I am much more likely to chip, with my putting stroke, as I also learned to do in the UK, because I've lost confidence in my putter generally [to avoid a certain four-letter word beginning in Y].


Always the contrarian! 

I will always putt from off the green, if the putt isn't too long. I know this will sound stupid, but if I have a very long putt from just off the edge of a green, I sometimes choose to chip with a 9-iron. Why? I count all putts - whether from just off the green or not - as putts, so if I do take 3 putts, I'll just get depressed. Besides, my putting is so bad, I might as well chip where others might choose to putt, just to keep my total putts respectable. Very sad indeed, but if you often have 38-44 putts in a round, you'll understand   

[Mark Smolens]

My putter is so short (as am I!), but also so heavy, that I have difficulty judging distance when trying to hit "putts" from off the green. As a result, I've learned to hit "putts" with my 4 hyrbrid from off the green. Same grip. Same tempo and swing length, but 22 degrees of loft in the hybrid

[Dan_Callahan]

Several years ago, while playing at Blue Fox Run in Connecticut, I putted out of a greenside bunker. True story. I think it was their ninth hole. Bunker was shallow with no lip, and the sand was practically concrete. There was a pond on the other side of the green and I figured the odds of me hitting a wedge out of there and keeping it out of the water was maybe 1 out of 10. So I putted. It was embarrassing as hell, but it worked so ... what the hell.

[Tim Martin]

Haven’t pros and amateurs alike taken this approach since jump street in Great Britain and Ireland?

[Mark_Fine]

Dan,
That can be a great play if you have the right lie in firm sand with no lip (especially if you are short-sided) but most bunkers don't allow it.  Nicklaus always said that a bad putt is usually much better than a bad chip.  His short game was better than most give him credit. 

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