Do tees really need to be flat?

[Thomas Dai]

Do tees really need to be flat?
Here, in a now coloured photo, is Royal Dornoch sometime ago.
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[Ally Mcintosh]

Well strictly speaking tees are never flat. They need +1% slope one way or another, usually high at front. I’ve seen them built with 4%. On big downhill holes they will be high at the back. Could be high left or right depending on shape of land. Freeform shapes that work in to the natural contours help.


But that’s not what you mean.


I think there are a few courses that have experimented with undulating tees. Was it not David Kidd that introduced this on a course with the argument that it would allow people to help setup to shape their shots?... Main trouble I can see is that people will just seek out the flat bits in between the undulations and they will wear badly.

[Jeff Schley]

I recall Mike Davis a few years back when discussing the US Open setup mentioned uneven tees, and was not received well. I have played some courses, which not by design certainly aren't level, but try and much as they can to be true.  Not a fan and probably wouldn't embrace it as a player either.

[Tom_Doak]

It is hard not to make them flat today because many in the golf business will accuse you of being basically incompetent.


Interestingly at The Loop there are no real tees at all on some holes because we didn't want to flatten out the approach for the hole playing the other direction.  I suspect that turns off some people, but no one has ever complained to me about it.  So maybe it's not as important as everyone says.

[Jay Mickle]

As fairway shape is factored in to green shape for approach shots, it makes sense to create a sloped teeing ground when designing a par 3. I don’t believe it would gain acceptance but I think it makes a lot of sense.

[JC Urbina]

Thomas,


One of my favorite quotes, if you don't mind.  I have brought this up before so if it sounds like a broken record sorry.


" The first and most important point to have in mind when building tees is to make them wherever possible indistinguishable from a fine bit of the fairway.  Do not raise them above the level of the fairway unless there is a real need to do so"
                                                                       
                                                                                                                       The Links - Robert Hunter


This was the point in my life when I was convinced is was time to start the "Uni Tee" a term that I called the tees I was going to start building when given the chance.  Pacific Dunes was that place, the very first hole built was the 5th and I knew this was my chance to  delve into Robert Hunters thinking by creating tees in the dunes to the north of the green.  I had seen tees like he had mentioned at Maidstone and the Dunes Club and  several links courses, so I had a reference for it if someone questioned me.   I remember The USGA reps for the Northwest even questioning why I was building tees like this with grassing lines that were not of the conventional thinking. 


The quote rang true for me and Pacific Dunes was my chance to show it could be done, free flowing on the ground, cool.  that was over 20 years ago now. 

[Lou_Duran]

Jim,


I am surprised that mowing tees at grade is not done more often.  Maybe drainage?


My home course has taken a beating this year and coming into the spring, our par 3 2nd and 3rd tees are mostly sand.  I have suggested preparing some extra tees at fairway level, but I guess that custom and practice run counter to that.


As a starting point to a hole, I do believe that tees should be relatively flat (after allowing for drainage).  In reality, over time with settling, sanding, and lack of care, finding a flat spot in good condition is often a problem. 

[Tom_Doak]

This was the point in my life when I was convinced is was time to start the "Uni Tee" a term that I called the tees I was going to start building when given the chance.  Pacific Dunes was that place, the very first hole built was the 5th and I knew this was my chance to  delve into Robert Hunters thinking by creating tees in the dunes to the north of the green.  I had seen tees like he had mentioned at Maidstone and the Dunes Club and  several links courses, so I had a reference for it if someone questioned me.   I remember The USGA reps for the Northwest even questioning why I was building tees like this with grassing lines that were not of the conventional thinking. 


The quote rang true for me and Pacific Dunes was my chance to show it could be done, free flowing on the ground, cool.  that was over 20 years ago now.

As I recall we both liked the free-form tees at The Dunes Club, which were the idea of our client for Bandon Dunes, so we decided he would be okay with building the tees at Pacific Dunes the same way.  But your memory is much more selective than mine!

[Tom_Doak]

Well strictly speaking tees are never flat. They need +1% slope one way or another, usually high at front. I’ve seen them built with 4%. On big downhill holes they will be high at the back. Could be high left or right depending on shape of land. Freeform shapes that work in to the natural contours help.

Actually, for a while in the USA [1990's], there were a few architects and contractors that insisted on building the tees perfectly flat, after they had started building them out of sand mix with herringbone drainage underneath.  It worked okay for a while, until the perk rate slowed down.  I don't think anyone does it that way still.

[Tom_Doak]

We should probably make some distinctions here about the different ways this can be interpreted:


a)  you can shape multiple flat areas and tie them together by mowing a broader area as the "tee" [now all the rage]
b)  you can deliberately shape R-L and L-R slopes within a formal tee [rare, but this was RTJ Jr's idea for Chambers Bay]
c)  you can mow out a big area that isn't shaped much and just let people find a level spot [a few holes at The Loop are like this]
d)  you can just take a portion of the fairway and stick tee markers there for forward tees [should be done more, but some people complain that they are not being provided "real" tees]


for Lou:


One reason you don't see more tees right at natural grade is that so many architects build them out of imported sand.  It's much easier to make them natural on a sandy site.

[Thomas Dai]

What would be the irrigation implications if tees aren’t flat or level but on a distinct tilt in one direction or another?
Imagine there could be adjacent but offsite safety implications as well as maybe left handed player - right handed player ones too? Maybe prevailing wind direction as well?
Atb

[David Ober]

I've actually mentioned this here before. I would love to play a course with uneven tees as an option, potentially on every hole. Think about how much better that would make us all get at the game. Literally no-one I know practices uneven lies except pros and elite ams who have too much time on their hands.


For instance, I would love to be able to play a ball above my feet lie to a tucked-right pin where the green falls away to the left -- as an optional teeing location.


After the round:


"Man, after butchering it last week, I hit one to 15-feet today with a right pin(!) on #4 from the hook tee box!"


Looks at club pro: "God, I just cant figure out how to get it on the green on #5 from the downhill tee box. Can I schedule a lesson with you?"


The more I think about it, the more I would love it. Probably not doable, reasonable on every hole, put on par-3's? I would love that as an option.

[Thomas Dai]

The more I think about it, the more I would love it. Probably not doable, reasonable on every hole, put on par-3's? I would love that as an option.

Be good on a par-3 type course.
Instead of high-wear, worn-out-soon grass tees have decent quality mats shaped like a dome or an upturned saucer with the high point in the centre. Masses of variable lies/stances available. Crew could spin the mat around if some parts become overly worn. Even occasionally move them to other positions. A flat-ish/level tee could still be provided in an adjacent position as an alternative.
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[Sean_A]

I always liked the idea that if much shaping was done for a green then make it flow to next tee. I reckon its a good way to keep tees near greens. I also like the idea of using natural higher ground near greens for tees, then cut a large area if not all of the high ground. It's kinda like putting bunkers in found areas which will naturally hold sand or is a break in the ground. But I also like low rise tees of maybe 12 to 18 inches which if have to be built look good disguised by native planting surrounding the tee. Again, this option can mimic some shaping around greens, especially those wee rises to the front of greens. Hoylake features this on some greens.

As to creating hook-slice lies on the tee... sounds gimmicky to me.

Ciao

[Mark_Fine]

Thomas,

I can't recall ever building a perfectly flat tee.  They all have some tilt for varies purposes as has been pointed out.  The problem with building purposely undulating tees would be golfers would wear out the flat areas.  Most wouldn't choose an uneven stance if they didn't have to. 

[David Ober]

Thomas,

I can't recall ever building a perfectly flat tee.  They all have some tilt for varies purposes as has been pointed out.  The problem with building purposely undulating tees would be golfers would wear out the flat areas.  Most wouldn't choose an uneven stance if they didn't have to.

I'm saying, the entire tee is slanted, or portion of the tee, is slanted, such that you MUST play your ball from an uneven lie when the tee markers are there.

[Peter Flory]

I'd say yes in general.  You get to put the ball on a tee after all.   


It's like asking if a batter's box in baseball needs to be flat.  If it's not, it's not really serving a purpose, but it mildly annoying.

[Thomas Dai]

A slight aside, but if a tee is flat/level and the ball is teed-up on a peg not sitting on the ground then the ball is already being played above the soles of your feet.
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[Jeff_Brauer]

Had never really thought about it in those terms, but yes, just as a green seems to need at least 6 (and for busy public courses, maybe up to 21) reasonably level (usually defined as less than 3%) to set cups, there is no doubt that golfers will find the level spots on the tees.  If a course needs 6,000 SF of tee (based on "industry standard" of 1.5-2 SF of tee per 100 rounds) then sure, add some rolls, but be sure to leave that 6,000 SF level.  Any golfer seeks to take advantage of everything he/she can to improve their score.  Only a gca nerd would play off a non-level lie just for the fun of it.  Since there only seem to be 1400 of us here, the sloped areas would get a small fraction of play, unless the tee markers were set only there.


I do know a few tour pros (and presumably more low handicappers who think the same way) who think the 1% slope of a normal tee ought to consider their shots, i.e., if they want a low shot, slope tees to the front, high shot, to the back, hook, slope left, fade, slope right.  But there are other factors that often override that gca's normally consider first, i.e., drainage away from path, drainage to low side (i.e., slope to front on tees sitting on a downhill slope, etc.)


Let's face it, the tee shot starts the hole.  The idea of playing it how it lies is generally reserved for second and subsequent shots.  It has been established by consensus that most golfers like the idea of starting the hole on level ground.  And, in reality, gca isn't about raising the scores of players, it's about letting them have a reasonable (not guaranteed) chance of hitting successful shots, with perhaps one shot type, pattern, height, etc., slightly favored that allows them a better score, not reducing their chance of success by design.

[jeffwarne]

I have no problem with sloped tees, especially if they serve a purpose (dranage etc.)
We built one along the natural grade with about 3% slope(upward in the direction of play)
No one has ever noticed or commented and no doubt it helps in getting the ball airborne from the ground level tee to a gradual uphill fairway.


I do have a problem when a tee is placed with an abrupt slope just behind(3-4 feet) the where the markers are set.
When I played Pacific Dunes, this occurred multiple times and my backswing collided with the abrupt slope behind-so we just teed up a couple feet up.
Obviously they had pushed the tees up a pad and wanted to fit two sets into a pad, or get the tee as close as possible to the unused pad(or were just hung over)
On 9, where pretty good altitude is needed for the upper fairway, the tees were located on a pretty significant downhill lie-at the exact back of the tee pad before the next level up.
I compensated by merely teeing it higher, but my playing partners didn't and hit solid shots right into the hill.
Setup is pretty important when dealing with tees that aren't so level.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I have seen courses with raised tees where, over time, the edges tend to sink so that the tee is rather crowned with the centre being high and either side falling off.  I like this as I could tee up on the left side of the tee to promote a draw to offset my natural fade.

[Jim Sherma]

When the teeing area allowed for it my dad used the far left of the tee box so his feet would be below the ball on a hook lie. He always felt like it made it a little easier to hit a draw.

[Bruce Katona]

On many of the older courses which many times don't have the current industry standard teeing areas of 1.5-2 sf of tee per 100 rounds (or the teeing ground area equals the green area for us simpler thinking folk) and have not done any reworking/regrading of their teeing grounds, over time topdressing the tees at seasons end has resulted middle areas are flat with the edges falling off, resulting in reduced actual tee area.


For a par 3, a better player may move to the left or right side of the tee to help shape a fade or draw; but for many of this groups customer base; as much flat area as possible is needed so the tees don't get worn down and compacted by all the beaver pelt divots many of the customers take during a practice swing.


As an aside; when I was looking at a large portfolio of high traffic public courses some time ago, one capital improvement we considered doing immediately was installing a strip of Tour Turf on every tee for daily play while aerating/reseeding to highly compacted worn grass/dirt tee areas and only using the natural turf on selected days.  Tour turf is far better to tee from than dirt and mud.

[Pete_Pittock]

The most challenging tees I ever played were crowned in the middle along the axis of the hole. I think the tee markers were about 6-8 yards wide.

[ward peyronnin]

Teeing grounds are a specifically designated areas related to the position of the tee markers. When these are placed in unlevel areas of the tee problems will occur. Many tees clearly aren't compacted properly and drop off on the margins or manifest other unintended consequences.
At a course I play several of these tee areas slope in a way to promote awkward or dangerous shots. Below the feet stances with OB to the left and an adjacent hole fairway to the right promote a dangerous landing for all but the most skilled or a nasty pull yank ob if trying to avoid that move. Several other holes have these unfortunate slopes which are pretty much disconnected from a strategic element but are merely poor care of the course. I firmly believe the golfer should have a fairly level beginning point for a hole upon which to address his ball.

Consider what is the ONE area from which all players play every hole? The tees are like a good handshake for a hole and should be considered accordingly to form a good impression whatever the flavor of that may be but primarily to reduce and not increase the awkwardness of the shot.