Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?

[Ed Brzezowski]

Mike I'd pay to watch that fiasco. He'd be on Ardmore Ave on 1. The backyards on 7 and 8. Revisit the avenue on 10 and 12 and be in someone's backyard on 11.  Cross the road and now he's bombing it into much nicer houses on 14 and 15. He'd probably kill some oldster on 15 tee  while playing 16. and sorry there's no way he's getting home in one on 18, or close for that matter.


It would be fun to watch, if there's betting I"ll take the over.

[Mark_Fine]

We had a long drive competitor come to play Lehigh a year or so ago.  I forget his name but the places he hit the golf ball were just ridiculous.  Guys that carry the ball 300+ yards will obsolete (or at a minimum) completely change the "design intent" of most golf courses - especially classic ones.  There is little you can (or would want or should) do to your golf course to rein them in.  Forgot it 

[Tom_Doak]

We had a long drive competitor come to play Lehigh a year or so ago.  I forget his name but the places he hit the golf ball were just ridiculous.  Guys that carry the ball 300+ yards will obsolete (or at a minimum) completely change the "design intent" of most golf courses - especially classic ones.  There is little you can (or would want or should) do to your golf course to rein them in.  Forgot it 

Someone pointed me last fall to Kyle Berkshire's VLOG of him playing Pacific Dunes, in a strong summer afternoon wind.  Watching it was way more fun than I imagined.  He hits some insane shots, but the angles get him on a number of holes -- for example, he drives it more than 400 yards on 4, but left over into 12 fairway, which does not leave an easy approach!      So, he overpowered the golf course, and shot 73 or 74.  With no wind, I'm sure it would have been a lot lower, but it would be for you and me, too.  For anybody that's got twenty minutes to spare:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkCZ-AGYbqc

[Bill Crane]

Mike I'd pay to watch that fiasco. He'd be on Ardmore Ave on 1. The backyards on 7 and 8. Revisit the avenue on 10 and 12 and be in someone's backyard on 11.  Cross the road and now he's bombing it into much nicer houses on 14 and 15. He'd probably kill some oldster on 15 tee  while playing 16. and sorry there's no way he's getting home in one on 18, or close for that matter.

It would be fun to watch, if there's betting I"ll take the over.

I agree with Mike's assessment but Merion is not the best example because as Ed points out there is O O B on:
#1,  #2, #6, #7, #8,#10, #11, #12, #13, #14, #15,#17 and #18.   
There are really only a few internal holes at Merion, mostly due to the small area of the course and the shape of the footprint.
I remember Steve Stricker hitting a Sh@#k on #2 into Ardmore Avenue which deflated his confidence in the last US Open there.

Possibly he would look at the course in crazy terms and hit his drive on #2 into the 5th fairway,  drive over the brook on # 11, hit his drive on #12 into the 11th fairway and insane stuff like that.

His length may cause more internal out of bounds being implemented like the PGA Tour did on the #18th at the Players Champ.

[Willie_Dow]

Maybe we should have a greater number of balls that go various distances, no matter how strong you are, how old you are, but distance control is the dominant factor - depending on the conditions of play  !

[jeffwarne]

Maybe we should have a greater number of balls that go various distances, no matter how strong you are, how old you are, but distance control is the dominant factor - depending on the conditions of play  !

a lot cheaper than 7 sets of tees.
I did a thread on that 5-6 years ago.
pretty short thread

[JESII]

The idea that everyone should be treated equally on every hole is where I'm lost. It's an impossibility.


Once that idea is resigned to the bin it belongs, this conversation can advance.


You could take two players of the same handicap with very similar strengths and weaknesses and they will see wholly different challenges and obstacles in anticipation of playing the hole...AND they will encounter wholly different issues along the way (and each day!!!) as well.


So, unless we disagree with that premise, how could we level out the experience for two golfers of substantially different strengths and weaknesses?

[MCirba]

Jim,

I'm not suggesting everyone needs to have the same club into the green, or that such a goal is even really desirable.   I have advocated for a set of tees at around 4,200 yards for multiple reasons, but let's keep to the original topic.

What I'm saying is that Ben Hogan was one of the longest drivers of his time, probably much the same way Justin Thomas (despite a slight build) is one of the longest today.    Here's from a 1949 Time Magazine article;

• His average drive was 265 yards – Ben was one of the longest drivers on the tour in 1948, the 2014 PGA Tour average was 290.0, the driving distance leader in 2014 was Morgan Hoffman with an average of 318.5 yards.
• He had a 100 yard spreads between his 7 iron and spoon (3-wood) and his 3 iron and driver
• His 1-iron averaged 195 yards.
• His "spoon", which is equivalent to today's 3-wood averaged 235 yards.


Assuming that's all true (he also used to earn extra money doing long driving contests against fellow tour players), comparatively how long would the 18th at Merion need to be for Bryson DeChambeau (or Justin Thomas, or Jon Rahm or Tony Finau or Dustin Johnson or Rory, or many others) to have to hit Driver, 2-iron to reach it in two?

I'm thinking somewhere around 600-700 yards.   How is that a sustainable model?

[Tom_Doak]

Jim,

I'm not suggesting everyone needs to have the same club into the green, or that such a goal is even really desirable.   I have advocated for a set of tees at around 4,200 yards for multiple reasons, but let's keep to the original topic.

What I'm saying is that Ben Hogan was one of the longest drivers of his time, probably much the same way Justin Thomas (despite a slight build) is one of the longest today.    Here's from a 1949 Time Magazine article;

• His average drive was 265 yards – Ben was one of the longest drivers on the tour in 1948, the 2014 PGA Tour average was 290.0, the driving distance leader in 2014 was Morgan Hoffman with an average of 318.5 yards.
• He had a 100 yard spreads between his 7 iron and spoon (3-wood) and his 3 iron and driver
• His 1-iron averaged 195 yards.
• His "spoon", which is equivalent to today's 3-wood averaged 235 yards.


Assuming that's all true (he also used to earn extra money doing long driving contests against fellow tour players), comparatively how long would the 18th at Merion need to be for Bryson DeChambeau (or Justin Thomas, or Jon Rahm or Tony Finau or Dustin Johnson or Rory, or many others) to have to hit Driver, 2-iron to reach it in two?

I'm thinking somewhere around 600-700 yards.   How is that a sustainable model?

Mike:


The answer to your question is that a hole has to be over 600 yards for the longer hitters on Tour to require a "fairway wood" for their second shots.  Our 8th hole in Houston is 615 with little in the way of helping wind, and about 20 players had a realistic shot at hitting it in two.  But for driver two-iron and I expect you to hit it in two, the # would be 560 or 570.


It is also good to remember that Ben Hogan was still recovering from his auto accident when he played at Merion, and that famous shot was at the end of a grueling 36-hole Saturday.  He would NOT have needed 1-iron in 1949.  He probably didn't need it for his other rounds at Merion in 1950.


Also, question on your stats, how did Hogan have a 100-yard spread between his driver and his 3-iron, if he hit his driver 265?

[Sean_A]

I would ask was Hogan's a carry number or total number? 265 carry back then would have been mega.

Ciao

[MCirba]

Here are the distances listed for Hogan prior to his 1950 accident.

18 at Merion played 458 yards that year with an uphill drive so these yardages would have been pretty consistent with driver, 2-iron.  (or was it a 1 iron?  I can never remember)

[Kyle Harris]

Here are the distances listed for Hogan prior to his 1950 accident.

18 at Merion played 458 yards that year with an uphill drive so these yardages would have been pretty consistent with driver, 2-iron.  (or was it a 1 iron?  I can never remember)

These numbers are *USELESS* without commensurate comparisons to modern specs.

I swear to the almighty that my next set of irons will have the same number stamped on the bottom.

[JESII]

I looked up his stats. Jody Vasquez wrote a book about Hogan and showed his specs for clubs used in the 60's and they weren't way off of today. 3 iron was 22* for example.


To me, the issue is thinking BDC should hit the same club into the green that Hogan did...nothing else about the game is the same. In fact, where I've heard Hogan hit that shot (front left part of the green) may not even hold the ball anymore. It may roll back off the front and down the slope 20 yards...

[MCirba]

For what it's worth, I have it on good authority (Ben Hogan himself) that the club he hit on his approach in the 4th round was a 1-iron.   


Apparently, earlier in the week when the hole was playing significantly downwind he hit a 5-iron.   Nevertheless, most approach shots that week from the contestants were long irons and fairway woods.