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MCirba

  • Total Karma: 10
Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« on: March 12, 2021, 11:43:18 AM »
Ok...perhaps at today's 510 yards that may be a stretch but if one considers a 380 yard ball flight landing on the steep down-slope with firm and fast conditions, maybe not.

In any case, when one wonders why some folks are opposed to the run amok technology that allowed gargantuan gains in distance over the past twenty years it's because they make a mockery of our historic courses, pure and simple.

Other par four holes at Merion that Bryson wouldn't think twice about trying to drive...1, 7, 8, 10, 11, 15, and both par fives would be easily reachable in two.

Don't even get me started on The Old Course.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 01:07:53 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2021, 11:50:10 AM »
Mike,


Next year's Open at TOC will certainly be a date to circle on the calendar.  Perhaps it'll be the tipping point that kicks of a roll back or bifurcation event....




Willie_Dow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2021, 12:25:52 PM »
It might be just time to reconsider the Nicklaus ball !  Or some variation of his thought during his younger days.  Next time I'm in New Bedford, Mass, I might gab with Acushnet.

David_Tepper

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2021, 12:48:45 PM »
"Next year's Open at TOC will certainly be a date to circle on the calendar.  Perhaps it'll be the tipping point that kicks of a roll back or bifurcation event...."

Remember, Nicklaus drove thru the 18th green at TOC in the 1970 Open.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPicaKToelM



John Kirk

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2021, 01:35:17 PM »
All of this attention about how Bryson DeChambeau prompts a reassessment of the modern game trivializes the effort he made to change his game.  He worked his ass off to gain 35 pounds of muscle and rebuild his swing.  There is still significant risk the experiment will fail.  He wins about once every 10-12 tournaments right now.  He is not as dominant as Tiger was in his prime.  Driving over the lake to 100 yards on #6 at Bay Hill was risky, and very exciting to witness.  That type of hole is one of a kind on tour.  Most of the holes you mention at Merion will be too risky to make the attempt to drive the green, as long as they keep the rough so damn long.


Mr. DeChambeau is a testimony to thoughtful, hard work.  Sure, he's a bit dorky and weird, but he is great for the game.

One vote here for the modern game, and the greats who play the game.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2021, 01:39:02 PM »
"Next year's Open at TOC will certainly be a date to circle on the calendar.  Perhaps it'll be the tipping point that kicks of a roll back or bifurcation event...."

Remember, Nicklaus drove thru the 18th green at TOC in the 1970 Open.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPicaKToelM


Thanks for sharing that David.  I always figured 18 was a bit of an exception as its super wide with plenty of room to wail on one.  And in next years open, I'm guessing half the field will likely be able to reach green high with 3 wood or less.

I think we'll also see a few notable players like BDC taking hacks at any par 4 under 370, unless into a head wind, and see quite a few results that are green high or close due to the F&F conditions.  I don't know how well that'll translate into lower scores, but certainly the optics of it may make the R&A blush a bit...

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2021, 03:36:15 PM »
John Kirk,



Not taking anything away from Bryson.  Didn't his playing partner on Saturday also airmail the lake at about 360?











"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kirk

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2021, 04:18:55 PM »
Hi Mike,

Yes.  I believe it was Rory McIlroy, who is also a very long hitter.  On Sunday, he was 163 yards ahead of Westwood, which is nothing if not amusing.


I was concerned I sounded harsh when I commented.  Not my intent, of course.  DeChambeau is an outlier, and therefore not a reason to change things.  Whether "they all hit it too far" is a separate question.  As a golf fan, I just like watching these great young players, and I'm not too concerned about rolling back the ball.  All the big sports have similar problems. 

Jeff Schley

  • Total Karma: -5
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2021, 05:05:18 AM »
Yeah Bryson is an outlier, Rory admits he was hurt trying to chase Bryson's distance gains.
https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/31053732/rory-mcilroy-says-swing-come-short-chasing-bryson-dechambeau-length
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tim_Weiman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2021, 01:50:25 AM »
All of this attention about how Bryson DeChambeau prompts a reassessment of the modern game trivializes the effort he made to change his game.  He worked his ass off to gain 35 pounds of muscle and rebuild his swing.  There is still significant risk the experiment will fail.  He wins about once every 10-12 tournaments right now.  He is not as dominant as Tiger was in his prime.  Driving over the lake to 100 yards on #6 at Bay Hill was risky, and very exciting to witness.  That type of hole is one of a kind on tour.  Most of the holes you mention at Merion will be too risky to make the attempt to drive the green, as long as they keep the rough so damn long.


Mr. DeChambeau is a testimony to thoughtful, hard work.  Sure, he's a bit dorky and weird, but he is great for the game.

One vote here for the modern game, and the greats who play the game.
John,


Trying to drive #11 at Merion seems insane to me.
Tim Weiman

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2021, 09:32:31 AM »
Ok...perhaps at today's 510 yards that may be a stretch but if one considers a 380 yard ball flight landing on the steep down-slope with firm and fast conditions, maybe not.

In any case, when one wonders why some folks are opposed to the run amok technology that allowed gargantuan gains in distance over the past twenty years it's because they make a mockery of our historic courses, pure and simple.

Other par four holes at Merion that Bryson wouldn't think twice about trying to drive...1, 7, 8, 10, 11, 15, and both par fives would be easily reachable in two.

Don't even get me started on The Old Course.


Then we will endure entire telecasts and entire Twitter feeds about how "Golf needs this" and how much interest it creates...
Until the adrenaline junkies that the "game" supposedly covets as converts become bored and move onto bigger challenges(driving 18 at Kapalua?)they really won't be satisfied, and then what's left?
Doing it one handed?-backflips in the air for style points complete with judges?


Maybe what's needed is.
Classic golf-with classic implements....1980 and before(Polaras, PING pre Eye 2 and Wilson Reflex welcome ;) )  balata balls or surlyn of the era, but no multi layer balls.
Amana hats optional


and extreme golf with whatever modern implements you want.(the FedEx St. Jude Classic World Golf Championships at TPC Memphis brought to you by Monster Motocross Extreme Golf)


and yes, I'm picking an era(1980) because it's my show.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2021, 09:33:31 AM »
I think the point I'm trying to make is that I've been coming here to GCA for 22 years now and have been hearing since 1999 or so that technology has now reached some type of limit...that balls won't go further or clubs won't be produced to make balls go further and that we are now at maximum warp speed and everyone can take a deep breath and relax.

Bull.

Back then I asked the simple question; how long would the 18th hole at Merion have to be for Tiger Woods to hit driver, 2-iron ala Ben Hogan in 1950?    Over those two decades time the answer for today's longest players is at least 100 yards longer than it was when I originally asked the question.   if you think that is a good place for golf course architecture to be, then I guess we simply disagree.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kyle Harris

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2021, 09:52:49 AM »
Mike Cirba,


Allow me to counter your latest post as of this writing with the idea that it is possible that technology in terms of ball/club construction had reached a limit then. However, optimization and athleticism have definitely improved in the past 22 years and there is no denying that and some data seem to support this notion. Furthermore, club specs have become divorced from the number stamped on the bottom of the club.


The above is often the counter for the "everything is fine now" crowd against the rollback crowd and it is fertile rhetorical ground until I bring up the point:


It doesn't matter why because the game/sport is more of a game/sport when the ball doesn't travel as far as high-level players are capable of hitting it today. This is agnostic to the reasons for that distance.


Tournament golf is a contest of the relative skill of maneuvering the golf ball around the course of a set number of holes/days. That fact will remain as it has for the past 500 years. Skillful golf is partially an exercise in integrating with the least amount of architecture possible (that whole fewest strokes wins thing). Distance should be an advantage but not the advantage.

http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2021, 10:05:06 AM »
I think the point I'm trying to make is that I've been coming here to GCA for 22 years now and have been hearing since 1999 or so that technology has now reached some type of limit...that balls won't go further or clubs won't be produced to make balls go further and that we are now at maximum warp speed and everyone can take a deep breath and relax.

Bull.

Back then I asked the simple question; how long would the 18th hole at Merion have to be for Tiger Woods to hit driver, 2-iron ala Ben Hogan in 1950?    Over those two decades time the answer for today's longest players is at least 100 yards longer than it was when I originally asked the question.   if you think that is a good place for golf course architecture to be, then I guess we simply disagree.


and for 20 years, smarter guys than me have consistently told me "this is the limit"
as you said--- "Bull"
An acceptance of much of the tech, oversized clubs, shaft lengths, etc. would be fine IF
they simply reset the ball and recognize it doesn't matter why(club size, technique,fitness etc.) it travels so far, but rather to reduce it for the elite, and all other things remain intact.
Manufacturers could still sell you clubs you don't need etc.


The inept reasoning I've seen on the distance insights project(limit to 46 inches(does nothing as no one plays 46 anyway), reduce driver size etc.) would just enough chaos and confusion for the idea to be scrapped.Asking a player to adjust to different sized drivers AND a ball would be too much, and the idea that larger head allows a harder swing is ONLY a theory(a well circulated one, but a theory). Pros hit the center of their tiny 3 woods, often with hugely aggressive swings.They are good, and don't miss the center often.I would even arge they would hit the center MORE often with a smaller club(aim small-miss small, but that also is just a theory)


Just further limit the BALL(one variable), and those on the cusp would have simply ONE adjustment to make(like playing at altitude)rather than several.
Most would bifurcate themselves out of ego or necessity.
Pro shops would still balls(both kinds) and clubs.(asking them to see 2 kinds of clubs would be a bridge too far)


In several years when for whatever reason courses get out of scale again, repeat.


Or... just keep building more tees and issue helmets for players and nearby homeowners, and coming up with other mindless NON scale addressing solutions like narrow fairways, deep rough(WF), and more trees(ANGC).....or enjoy your 6 hour walk at any modern course that has aspirations of being tournament relevant.









"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim_Coleman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2021, 10:16:05 AM »
  I always believed the players gave too much respect to Merion at the last Open.  They played 1, 7, 8, 12 and 15 from pretty much the same places i play them from, although I hit drivers to their irons.  I would think many of them could drive balls at least into green side bunkers on those holes.

David Ober

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2021, 10:43:02 PM »
All of this attention about how Bryson DeChambeau prompts a reassessment of the modern game trivializes the effort he made to change his game.  He worked his ass off to gain 35 pounds of muscle and rebuild his swing.  There is still significant risk the experiment will fail.  He wins about once every 10-12 tournaments right now.  He is not as dominant as Tiger was in his prime.  Driving over the lake to 100 yards on #6 at Bay Hill was risky, and very exciting to witness.  That type of hole is one of a kind on tour.  Most of the holes you mention at Merion will be too risky to make the attempt to drive the green, as long as they keep the rough so damn long.


Mr. DeChambeau is a testimony to thoughtful, hard work.  Sure, he's a bit dorky and weird, but he is great for the game.

One vote here for the modern game, and the greats who play the game.


+1


Total oddball, and I don't really care for him either on or off the golf course, but I absolutely enjoy watching him play the game. And I very much respect him for playing the game his way.

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2021, 08:55:07 AM »
All of this attention about how Bryson DeChambeau prompts a reassessment of the modern game trivializes the effort he made to change his game.  He worked his ass off to gain 35 pounds of muscle and rebuild his swing.  There is still significant risk the experiment will fail.  He wins about once every 10-12 tournaments right now.  He is not as dominant as Tiger was in his prime.  Driving over the lake to 100 yards on #6 at Bay Hill was risky, and very exciting to witness.  That type of hole is one of a kind on tour.  Most of the holes you mention at Merion will be too risky to make the attempt to drive the green, as long as they keep the rough so damn long.


Mr. DeChambeau is a testimony to thoughtful, hard work.  Sure, he's a bit dorky and weird, but he is great for the game.

One vote here for the modern game, and the greats who play the game.


+1


Total oddball, and I don't really care for him either on or off the golf course, but I absolutely enjoy watching him play the game. And I very much respect him for playing the game his way.


Agreed with all of the above(mostly)
Bryson deserves enormous respect,and is NOT a reason for a rollback/bifurcation.
Hard work and innovation of technique and optimization of equipment should be rewarded.


Kind've sad(and wrong) it took a freakish transformation for the world to notice what many/me have been ranting about for years.
If scale were restored(and he's not the yardstick, but rather an outlier)I believe he would benefit as he could still reach par 5's with mid irons while others might need fway woods.Or he'd reach holes others then couldn't.


Bryson's not the only one who will make a mockery of TOC should they get mildish weather(and I don't mean score)


History has shown as the ball goes father, the courses get longer and the footprint gets bigger.
4000 yard US Open courses in 1890's vs. 7600.
Is this really the answer going forward?

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JESII

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2021, 09:51:10 AM »
To address the initial post...although I'm certain it was tongue in cheek...after that 380 yard drive comes to a rest at the bottom of the downslope he has 130 yards and about 40 feet uphill, so no, he will not be driving #18.


But, to the point; there has been a cap on equipment based gains since 2002ish, meaning ball and clubs do not result in higher ball speeds. I just looked at PGA Tour distance rankings from 2002 compared to today. #'s 1, 50 and 100 have all increased by about 15 yards due to a variety of factors. Call that 5% just to make it easy so assume whatever amount of roll back is dictated, these guys will find 5% of it in pretty short order and the rest of us will not.


What is the end goal? To protect the courses? To retain the integrity of shot values as designed?


I think THE GOAL from the four or five authorities is to provide entertainment, period...full stop.

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2021, 10:15:55 AM »
Jim,

The goal is to prevent it from becoming professional tennis, which is unwatchable.

Perhaps I'm a curmudgeon but the new adrenaline-fueled game where fans yell "whoop whoop" as someone bombs one 400 yards is nap-inducing.   


The goal is also to recognize that at a time where land and water resources are becoming increasingly expensive, golf is going in the complete wrong direction from a sustainability standpoint.   
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 10:33:47 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -5
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2021, 11:34:19 AM »
An 18 hole par 66 golf course with ten par threes averaging 200 yards plus four par fours averaging 500 yards plus four par fives averaging 600 yards would give a 6400 yard championship length golf course that would challenge all the pros and with shorter tees be fun for all levels, use less land and resources and still provide a wide range of golf shots and excitement and interest. 

JESII

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2021, 12:02:02 PM »
Mike,


YOUR GOAL is to prevent it from becoming professional tennis. The Tours and ruling bodies disagree...I can only be certain that they disagree by their actions, which clearly cater to the adrenaline fueled, win at all costs persona the last 25 years of golf champions has exhibited.


This comes down to the clubs and course owners making the decisions that are in their best interests, which hopefully align with common sense.


If given the choice, I would be very happy for the great courses of the country to forego the pursuit of major championships in favor of preservation. Let them develop a rotation of courses that they can do whatever they want to.

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2021, 12:13:30 PM »
But Jim,


Isn't that sort of like saying we need to build a new Citizens Bank Park in Philadelphia with 600 feet to center field with a 20 foot wall rather than put limits on the balls and bats that are used and continue to play in the current stadium?


Thankfully, pro baseball has regulated itself so this question is only hypothetical.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

JESII

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2021, 12:23:04 PM »
No, I don't see it as like that at all.


There are 30 or so baseball stadiums in the country that already cater to the best players in the world. I would be thrilled if 30 or fewer golf courses took it upon themselves to host all professional events and the rest could resist the urge to prepare just in case...


Also...golf equipment is highly regulated and has been forever. The constant suggestion that it's not weakens the argument.

JESII

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2021, 12:55:32 PM »
I'll be honest...I was shocked he didn't hit driver on #18 at Sawgrass this past Sunday.


Downwind and pretty firm, I would have thought his running draw would look pretty appetizing...especially being 2 back. I wonder if the 3 or 4 way tie for second he was in factored into the amount he had to lose if he made bogey.

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Will Bryson drive the iconic 18th green at Merion?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2021, 04:22:49 PM »



I think THE GOAL from the four or five authorities is to provide entertainment, period...full stop.


I'll bite.
Let's say there had been no ProV1 multi-layer or COR rebound allowed, or nipped in the bud in 2001, and that they were playing balata and persimmon.


Would we not be entertained,by Bryson hitting it 325, JT hitting it 308, Rory hitting it 315, just as we were by Jack's 300, Davis' 300 and Tiger's 310?Especially when NO amateur ever came close to that.I'm not arguing Bryson would be longer than all, or that he doesn't deserve his relative advantage, just that golf was no less entertaining to me when others crushed it relatively shorter.


I mean if moving a tee up on a goofy horseshoe par 5 to make it driveable is all that was needed, why didn't they think of it before?



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey