18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)

[Thomas Dai]

The more I think about this the more I think they are very rare as the don't really exist on the better golf courses.

I’d go along with this. A sad area of general omission these days. Lost opportunities?
Indeed the absence of such length holes is one of the reasons I raised the thread.
Adrian is too modest to mention it but the canny 2nd on his Stranahan course, is a mere 269 yds of cunning.
Some others worth mentioning -
18th at Kington is 279 yds
17th at Minchinhampton Old is 275 yds
1st at Stinchcombe Hill is 276 yds
16th at Aberdovey is 289 yds
8th, 13th and 18th at Perranporth are all between 250-300 yds
Atb

[Mark_Fine]

Thomas,
What might be my favorite short par four on the planet (I am biased because I got to work on it) is the short 17th at Tucker's Point Club in Bermuda.  Measured along the ground it is just over 300 yards from the tips but in reality it is about 285.  It is an iconic view standing in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean on a spec of land looking over the turquoise waters.  Paul Adams (the GM there at the time) and I had grand plans to implement a master plan that I did for the course but we only got part way with our changes chipping away for five years or so before the hotel property along with the golf course went into receivership     As i said it might be my favorite short four I have ever played of the 1600 plus (maybe not as cool as I think courses) that I have seen 

[V. Kmetz]

There are few short par-4's on most of The Open rota courses because the powers that be are obsessed with length and defending par, and the trickle down effect of that has ruined lots of interesting holes in the process.  However The Old Course has a ton of par-4's that are very short, just not quite under 300 yards.  The 9th and 10th and 12th have all been driven many times.

1. Exactly
2. This is what I mean about the absence of objectivity (re 9/10) influencing what we regard as much as what architects build anew... those holes are often pish-poshed, but I think they are great fun and in a match, very bit as amusing as is the Road Hole... they don;t precisely come under the yardage threshold this thread (and my other posts) is focused on, but the point you make of their drivability is part of that larger point.

[Sean_A]

I am always going to go for

4 St Enodoc

18 Kington

_________________________

16 Aberdovey

3 Cavendish

7 Elie

17 Kilspindie

5 Alnmouth Village

8 Perranporth

13 Perranporth

13 Lahinch

12 Pennard

1 Formby Ladies

15 Palmetto

16 Prestwick

10 Elie

It is very difficult to think of 250-270 holes, at the far extreme for a par 3.

Ciao

[Bill Gayne]

Add 9th at Rye and 13th at Lahinch to the mix.

[David_Tepper]

Lincoln Park in San Francisco has 6 par-4's between 250 & 300 yards (and a few more between 300 & 325). #10 & #11 are the best of the bunch.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/e148af5dbf4a5ba1728ffedd17031ff4?AccessKeyId=6F5A4831EF967E1E4C09&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

[Mark_Fine]

Playing a fun one right this second, #16 at Robber’s Row in SC, a Pete Dye redesign.  265 yard par four from tips. 

[Tom_Doak]

Playing a fun one right this second, #16 at Robber’s Row in SC, a Pete Dye redesign.  265 yard par four from tips.

Really?  Alice and Pete were generally not fond of drivable par-4's -- Pete just called them a long par-3.

[mark chalfant]

13th Franklin Hills     298 yards    Ross
5th at Southampton  294 yards    Raynor
5th  Cuscowilla        304 yards    Coore and Crenshaw
2nd  Powelton          279 yards      Emmet

2nd   NGLA                287 yards    Macdonald
7th   Sand Hills          285 yards    Coore& Crenshaw
15th Dismal River Red 312 yards    Doak

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Robber's Row was a redesign by Pete so maybe that is the reason.  The 5th at Long Cove is drivable but hardly worth the risk.  You know that hole.  I have gone for it just for fun and been close. The smart shot is something about 200 off the tee - closer to the water leaves a clear 80-110 yard shot to the green where as to the right the second is blind.

The 6th at PGA West is a 255+ yard par three which is one example of what you are talking about with Pete.

As far as other holes, the 3rd hole at The Olympic Club was lengthened to 250 yards (par three).  This is another example of why do we worry about the back tees. 

The 15th at French Creek outside Philly by Gil Hanse is a 290 yard par four from the tips.  I made a 2 there playing with Gil from the back   

Fazio did a 295 yard par four the 4th at The Quarry at La Quinta. 


Doesn't Interlachen by Ross in MN have a short four (#15 or #16) that I remember being pretty special but I think it is just over 310 yards (likely an added tee not original).

I think there are a lot of these holes if you look for them.  And I still think some of the best won't be mentioned because of silly back tees that stretch them past the guidelines of this thread. 


When you evaluate holes for greatness, what tees to you judge this from? 

[Bill Seitz]

13th at Kingsley.  292 yards from the tips.  I'll hit anything from driver to 6 iron depending on weather, and more importantly, the pin position. 

[AJ_Foote]

Two of Australia's best:


Royal Adelaide 3


Lost Farm 14


Andrew

[jeffwarne]

Tom,
 The 5th at Long Cove is drivable but hardly worth the risk.  You know that hole.  I have gone for it just for fun and been close. The smart shot is something about 200 off the tee - closer to the water leaves a clear 80-110 yard shot to the green where as to the right the second is blind.

I worked at Long Cove 1988-1991.
Never once did I ever see or hear of anyone try to drive #5 and I played a lot of golf with good players I taught (Doug Weaver,a Tour player I taught, John Hughes All American at NC, Kevin King,)
Probably 280-290 as the crow flies to the front of the green from back tee. 310 in total then.
We hosted the 1991 US Mid-Am-never heard a peep about anyone trying to drive it
I'm quite sure there are plenty who can fly it there now(good luck stopping it), even with 3 wood, but I don't think Pete Dye ever intended for that to be a reasonable option-which it might be now.

[mike_beene]

Besides 8 at Oakmont which has been mentioned, there are two on the front nine at Sewickly , 3 and 5 that I believe are under 300. Number 3 is down a hill and pretty interesting

[Tal Oz]

A pair from So Cal:

The 11th at LACC North is listed at 249y par 3

The driveable and split fairway 3rd at Rustic Canyon is listed at 315 from the blacks but as the crow flies is 290 (tee to center of the green.) It's a hole you drive by on your way in and circle as a birdie opportunity, but can quickly pile on a double or worse to your card. At least 3 distinct routes, left, right, and going for it with a deceptively firm and fall away green.

https://imgur.com/a/nC2GneB

[jeffwarne]

15th hole Palmetto-298 from tips
Great fallaway and right to left green tilt makes hole.
used to hate the hole...

[Pat Burke]

1 at Victoria (Australia)


At least when I played it


A very easy first hole which almost put more Pressure on  the start of the round.


I always felt like I HAD to make three getting started. 

[Sean_A]

I am pretty sure 9 Rye & Crail, 15 Nairn and 13 Franklin Hills are longer than 300 yards.

Ciao

[V. Kmetz]

#5 - Blind Brook
#1 - Fenway
#3 - Winged Foot West
#4 - Stanwich

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
Back then maybe they didn't go for it at #5 at Long Cove, but the game has changed.  I didn't say it was smart but it is easily reachable (a lot of guys could hit long irons). 

Look at #9 at Harbour Town.  Tell the pros that one is not a drivable par four.  Brooks hit it to 3 feet and many guys didn't need driver to get there. 

How about the 10th hole at The Belfry?  Less than 300 yard carry to that sliver of a green but many go for it.  I tried just for fun from one tee up and it definitely is possible.

I played Spring Creek Ranch, a Nicklaus course in Memphis, TN many times in their member guest. One the one hole, about a 400 yard par four that is like an elbow hole with a lake along the left side between the tee and the green, I hit a nice drive of about 250 yards down the left to the corner of the elbow leaving me a short iron into the green.  My partner did the same and we are standing there waiting for our opponents to play.  The one player is a college kid from Arkansas.  He is going back and forth with his caddie about what club to hit.  We finally realize he is planning to carry the lake and go for the green. The carry over the water is 310 yards and the green is 330 yards away.  He was back and forth between Driver and 3W.  He choose Driver.  It was too much club.  He flew the green 

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,
Back then maybe they didn't go for it at #5 at Long Cove, but the game has changed.  I didn't say it was smart but it is easily reachable (a lot of guys could hit long irons). 

Look at #9 at Harbour Town.  Tell the pros that one is not a drivable par four.  Brooks hit it to 3 feet and many guys didn't need driver to get there. 

How about the 10th hole at The Belfry?  Less than 300 yard carry to that sliver of a green but many go for it.  I tried just for fun from one tee up and it definitely is possible.

I played Spring Creek Ranch, a Nicklaus course in Memphis, TN many times in their member guest. One the one hole, about a 400 yard par four that is like an elbow hole with a lake along the left side between the tee and the green, I hit a nice drive of about 250 yards down the left to the corner of the elbow leaving me a short iron into the green.  My partner did the same and we are standing there waiting for our opponents to play.  The one player is a college kid from Arkansas.  He is going back and forth with his caddie about what club to hit.  We finally realize he is planning to carry the lake and go for the green. The carry over the water is 310 yards and the green is 330 yards away.  He was back and forth between Driver and 3W.  He choose Driver.  It was too much club.  He flew the green 

Mark,
Not saying the game hasn't changed.
Just that Pete Dye didn't design 5 at LC to be driveable in 1981.
Of course it is now, but I'd guess if he were designing it now it would be 355 from the back(+15%-and driveable by 2035 )....but perhaps he would have a different mindset now on driveable par 4's.

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
This is the challenge I was talking about in part on the other thread - assessing/restoring "design intent".  But some here don't think we should try to figure that out or presume anything. 


I wonder if Nicklaus ever thought that his 400+ yard hole at Spring Creek Ranch would turn into a risk/reward hole (on the tee shot).  He is still around so we could ask him     Maybe it turned into a better hole 

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,
This is the challenge I was talking about in part on the other thread - assessing/restoring "design intent".  But some here don't think we should try to figure that out or presume anything. 


I wonder if Nicklaus ever thought that his 400+ yard hole at Spring Creek Ranch would turn into a risk/reward hole (on the tee shot).  He is still around so we could ask him     Maybe it turned into a better hole 

as did 5 at LC

[Richard Fisher]

Warm agreement about
3 at Swinley
4 at St Enedoc
9 at The Sacred Nine (very back tee issues may stretch this over the limit)
9 at Rye (which is I think 299)
16 at Prestwick
17 at Huntercombe


but to me best of all is still


16 at Aberdovey - 'a glorious and unique hole' to quote Patric Dickinson in A Round of Golf Courses, as it unquestionably is, and the description of it in ARoGC is one of the very best in a book full of wonderful hole descriptions.

[Duncan Cheslett]

3 at Cavendish

The 3rd at Cavendish is a classic of the genre.


280 yards from the back tee and ostensibly the easiest hole on the course the green is driveable by many but held by few. It slopes wickedly from right to left and from front to back. A tee shot landing on the green is likely to run off the back onto the 2nd tee or even the 1st green! The route in is actually through the gap between the back bunker and the chain of fronting bunkers.


The wise shot may be to play short left and be left with an uphill pitch to the flag. It’s probably easier to get close that way than it is with a long putt from the wrong part of the green!


3d by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr