AP Invitational

[Phil Burr]

Does anyone else feel like we're seeing this once-esteemed event die a slow death?  When AP was alive they could have played the event at a muni in Brownsville and drawn a world-class field, but now, saddled with an in-between date and a mediocre venue, the tournament feels very average - certainly not the legacy AP would have envisioned.  How long can Golf Channel prop up its founders event and does a similar fate await the Memorial?


And no, just to head off those who think I pine for the past: I'm a history major who uses my schooling to look to the future.

[Tom_Doak]

Hmmm, that's an interesting question.


My first take was that it would be around as long as Tiger is still playing, considering he won it so often, but that's up in the air now.


That said, there is still a Byron Nelson Classic, and they still play Colonial long after Ben Hogan has gone.


In the end, it's really about whether a big sponsor -- almost certainly in Florida -- wants to play somewhere else on that date.  But I would guess the PGA Tour would be very sheepish about moving away from Arnold's place anytime soon.

[Tim Leahy]

The Players Championship is next week so the AP will get alot of other tour players getting here early and alot of PGA players live in Fla for tax purposes making it a home game. McElroy leads today and the leader board looks like the flags of the UN so I don't see it going away.

[V. Kmetz]

While I agree the PGA will tread as lightly as they can, I understand PB's sentiment... with Arnie 5 years gone and its profile champion unfortunately about at a competitive end, what is there left to summon appeal?


Bay Hill?  It's got to be the plainest and least remarkable of the several Tour courses built or associated with the games' American player pantheon...ANGC, Muirfield Village, Greenbriar (Snead), Colonial, Riviera (Hogan)....as a matter of personal taste, I find the two other courses where Tiger won 7x+, Torrey and Firestone, to be better TV watches. As Florida Tour courses go, it's near the bottom of my list too, nip and tuck with PGA Ntl, behind Sawgrass, Doral (BT), and behind Innisbrook, which has grown on me over the years.


Without Tiger doing something competitively amazing to win and without Arnie to hand the prize, I feel Bay Hill just washes into a formless collage of flatlands and large greens weaving through waters and palms.  I'm positive I would have a lovely time there with friends; I'm sure its a dandy lunch and you are treated well, and everything is nice and Tour trim, just not much spectating or architectural interest there, so I see how PB can arrive at the feeling.

[Phil Burr]

Wow!!  I'm extraordinarily flattered to be referred to using my initials, having always assumed that on this site they referred to a certain west coast top 10 course.

[Peter Pallotta]

VK - I think both JN and AP's estate "understand PB's sentiments" too. That's why JN announced not long ago one last great major renovation at MV, no doubt to try to ensure that the course remains a relevant "championship test" after he's gone; and why there was mention on today's broadcast of an upcoming announcement by AP's estate, one that seems to involve a significant revitalization/upgrading of the Bay Hill resort to ensure that it's for decades to come a truly fitting tribute to/celebration of AP's legacy & importance to the game. Those two greats, Jack and Arnold, know/knew they were loved and respected; but they also know/knew better than anyone that the Tour is a business, and that at the end of the day money will always trump nostalgia and sentimentality.

[Jeff Schley]

I guess such is life, change happens and Bay Hill I haven't ever particularly thought was a great course. Without AP being the glue to make it an event and attracting the field I think we will see a less than stellar field.

MV is a much better course than Bay Hill could ever be and the tie with JN I think will live on as a sponsor will want to be associated with JN.

I feel for the degradation of the fields for the Byron Nelson. He certainly was a gentlemen and without him, the fields have withered.

We shall see what Tiger actually ends up supporting or hosting. He has his own invitational event the Hero Challenge now. He has agreed to host the Genesis at Riviera. However, will he agree to either become a host of the JN event perhaps? Will he have his own invitational? It would be an instant success for it would draw a great field.

[V. Kmetz]

We shall see what Tiger actually ends up supporting or hosting. He has his own invitational event the Hero Challenge now. He has agreed to host the Genesis at Riviera. However, will he agree to either become a host of the JN event perhaps? Will he have his own invitational? It would be an instant success for it would draw a great field.

I have little feel for the Hero thing or Tiger's hosting. I don't feel his meaningful "poobah" presence at either (yet). (To be honest, I think the one item deficient in Woods' trophy case is Riviera) If Tiger is ever to have such a thing, I think first and foremost, he must be the spearhead on a new course, in an area associated with him (so that's Cal and Fla.) that amazes us or identifies with the golf public...Bay Hill has at least that, if tepid to the TV architectural eye, it's distinctly "Palmer's" look and water makes for do or die exciting results.  I don't know why I say this because he is far from the pink cardigan time in his life, but I'd love to see Woods' thing in Palm Springs, and take back the Hope spot in the calendar.

[Jeff Schley]

I have little feel for the Hero thing or Tiger's hosting.

Although he is able to get a great field year after year and the TV rights are very healthy I would imagine. He is the biggest draw in golf and for good reason. Should he choose to put his weight behind the John Deere, so you think it will draw a bigger field and the sponsor put up bigger $? I would think so.

I don't see Tiger as wanting to host a pro am event like the Hope. I loved the event and Mickelson is some sort of host there now isn't he? He should up that profile and try and get players there.

[Kalen Braley]

I think the Bryon Nelson Classic is a good comparison.

As I recall from 10+ years ago it used to be one of the prime events of the year, but has since fallen way off, currently bouncing around from venue to venue, and I can't recall the last time it had a packed field with good representation from the top 25.

Its clearly just another tour stop these days...

[Tom_Doak]

VK - I think both JN and AP's estate "understand PB's sentiments" too. That's why JN announced not long ago one last great major renovation at MV, no doubt to try to ensure that the course remains a relevant "championship test" after he's gone; and why there was mention on today's broadcast of an upcoming announcement by AP's estate, one that seems to involve a significant revitalization/upgrading of the Bay Hill resort to ensure that it's for decades to come a truly fitting tribute to/celebration of AP's legacy & importance to the game. Those two greats, Jack and Arnold, know/knew they were loved and respected; but they also know/knew better than anyone that the Tour is a business, and that at the end of the day money will always trump nostalgia and sentimentality.

I hope that works out better for them than it did for Cog Hill.

[V. Kmetz]

Although he is able to get a great field year after year and the TV rights are very healthy I would imagine. He is the biggest draw in golf and for good reason. Should he choose to put his weight behind the John Deere, so you think it will draw a bigger field and the sponsor put up bigger $? I would think so.

I don't see Tiger as wanting to host a pro am event like the Hope. I loved the event and Mickelson is some sort of host there now isn't he? He should up that profile and try and get players there.

No I didn't mean commercially viable or a good field; I'm sure the numbers are there for viability and perhaps growth...I just mean my own feel of permanent identity... Woods' hosting of Genesis or Hero feels as empty and mercurial as the Fed Ex cup pursuit. HINO..."Hosting" In Name Only.  I'm offering that Woods will not make that sort of legendary transition until he makes or takes over/rebrands a distinct course of his own, with which he is identified, in the way Jones = ANGC, Nicklaus = MV, Palmer = Bay Hill. He tried a few years back too with that July event which was at Congressional (and in Philly).  That too, felt "empty" as to any sense of founding something permanent, the way those other immortals have.  But it's early and only now after the accident, might he devote himself to such post-playing things.


I feel deficient in these convesrations of our British/International friends... are there any international legends players who have made a single course/event their own?... perhaps Seve with Valderamma?

[JESII]

Because it's not Tiger, as Tiger. It's a business entity. It's the TGR that, as I understand it, is the Tiger Woods Foundation...so, at it's core, is a management company run as a non-profit to avoid income taxes. Not to say Tiger doesn't care about the kids but this is business...

[Peter Pallotta]

Because it's not Tiger, as Tiger. It's a business entity. It's the TGR that, as I understand it, is the Tiger Woods Foundation...so, at it's core, is a management company run as a non-profit to avoid income taxes. Not to say Tiger doesn't care about the kids but this is business...

I know you don't exist simply to shatter my various illusions, one after the other. But I'm starting to get the distinct feeling that you enjoy doing it. I think you may be the 'frenemy' I hear so much about these days.

[V. Kmetz]

Because it's not Tiger, as Tiger. It's a business entity. It's the TGR that, as I understand it, is the Tiger Woods Foundation...so, at it's core, is a management company run as a non-profit to avoid income taxes. Not to say Tiger doesn't care about the kids but this is business...

No disagreement here Jim; but corporatized for total balance sheet or not, I feel he's going to have to build a special/unique course that he is identified with to breed the same significant aesthetic of hosting we get from the legacy of others.


One more thing; in the aegis of sports... this is the "agent's business"  - this is Mark Steinberg's business.

[JESII]

Peter,

Ha...

Yeah well, at least you live in (or very near) Vancouver...so lets call it even.

[Jeff Schley]

  I'm offering that Woods will not make that sort of legendary transition until he makes or takes over/rebrands a distinct course of his own, with which he is identified, in the way Jones = ANGC, Nicklaus = MV, Palmer = Bay Hill. He tried a few years back too with that July event which was at Congressional (and in Philly).  That too, felt "empty" as to any sense of founding something permanent, the way those other immortals have.  But it's early and only now after the accident, might he devote himself to such post-playing things.

I agree that he has the stature to build a course and make it go from zero to 100 if he hosts an annual invitational himself. I could certainly see that happening, but as you said his focus was on getting back to winning majors as a player. Who knows what happens after this latest injury. Probably when he turns 50 regardless is a more realistic timeline to think he will start looking towards some event to create, but after all it seems like all the all time greats have done it.
I like the HINO (host in name only) term. Mickelson I think is a good example of this. I vaguely recall he even agreed to do it a couple years ago at the Hope. Who would know as he hasn't done anything substantial. He is one of the top 10 players of all time, he has clout, use it.

[V. Kmetz]

I agree that he has the stature to build a course and make it go from zero to 100 if he hosts an annual invitational himself. I could certainly see that happening, but as you said his focus was on getting back to winning majors as a player. Who knows what happens after this latest injury. Probably when he turns 50 regardless is a more realistic timeline to think he will start looking towards some event to create, but after all it seems like all the all time greats have done it.

I like the HINO (host in name only) term. Mickelson I think is a good example of this. I vaguely recall he even agreed to do it a couple years ago at the Hope. Who would know as he hasn't done anything substantial. He is one of the top 10 players of all time, he has clout, use it.

As these sacred cows (Woods, Mickelson) shuffle off the competitive stage, I think people like us on this board want to see them taking months to scope out a property, have us exchange rumors on who the architect/consultant is, get sneak photos of them with the blueprints on the virgin land, hitting shots to undefined visionary areas... have them talk it up...start planning with the Tour about dates and terms of hosting. I can;t stand that detached, corporatized "thing" about professional sports in this cra$y age...that every dollar and every role has got to be whacked out ahead of time.


Imagine if one of those guys did something fun and novel with such a project...a name master architect for the basic routing and physical plan... Woods and 16 other architects design a hole a piece...something...

[Jeff Schley]

I agree that he has the stature to build a course and make it go from zero to 100 if he hosts an annual invitational himself. I could certainly see that happening, but as you said his focus was on getting back to winning majors as a player. Who knows what happens after this latest injury. Probably when he turns 50 regardless is a more realistic timeline to think he will start looking towards some event to create, but after all it seems like all the all time greats have done it.

I like the HINO (host in name only) term. Mickelson I think is a good example of this. I vaguely recall he even agreed to do it a couple years ago at the Hope. Who would know as he hasn't done anything substantial. He is one of the top 10 players of all time, he has clout, use it.

As these sacred cows (Woods, Mickelson) shuffle off the competitive stage, I think people like us on this board want to see them taking months to scope out a property, have us exchange rumors on who the architect/consultant is, get sneak photos of them with the blueprints on the virgin land, hitting shots to undefined visionary areas... have them talk it up...start planning with the Tour about dates and terms of hosting. I can;t stand that detached, corporatized "thing" about professional sports in this cra$y age...that every dollar and every role has got to be whacked out ahead of time.


Imagine if one of those guys did something fun and novel with such a project...a name master architect for the basic routing and physical plan... Woods and 16 other architects design a hole a piece...something...

True..... really what I was hoping for Woods is that he take the Jackson Park project that has been trying to get together in Chicago combining JP and SS into an 18 hole championship course owned by the Chicago Park District (that some loathe on this site). Woods said he was already on board as the designer, and bring back the July 4th weekend Western Open hosted by Tiger Woods. That would be an great stop on the tour schedule as it was for decades. You enhance it with a great venue on the Lake Shore Drive coast, have great dates, in a great city, with an iconic host. Alot of boxes checked. You could raise of ton of money for charity. Woods is synonymous with that event as he won it multiple times in his career.

Sadly while the Obama Presidential Center is green lit it seems, the course is nowhere to be seen lately.