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Matthew Rose

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2021, 11:05:26 PM »
I don't know if Nebraska offered that program when I was a student there (mid-90s) but at the time, it was recommended by career counselors that I spoke to that thought I should try civil engineering. I suppose some principles of advanced math and physics could apply but that became my life for 24/7 and I crashed and burned within a semester and a half. To this day I'm still kind of mystified by this advice, but when I was 18 years old I listened to a lot of people I shouldn't have.

I looked into standard architecture, as they didn't offer a landscape degree, but I didn't see how designing buildings was gonna be relevant either, so I kinda gave up on on it. I was also derailed by finding my future wife and mother of my two children, but that's another story.

If that turfgrass program had existed then and I'd have known about it, I'd probably have pursued it. But the thing that always scared me off was the construction side of the profession. I preferred sitting in a quiet room drawing course plans and then later on a computer.

Now I'm doing course renderings for Trackman for a living.... go figure.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 11:10:05 PM by Matthew Rose »
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2021, 12:17:40 AM »

1. Penn State, my alma mater
Pennsylvania State University-Main Campus offers 2 Turf And Turfgrass Management Degree programs. It's a large public university in a small city. In 2015, 29 students graduated in the study area of Turf And Turfgrass Management with students earning 29 Bachelor's degrees.
2. NC State
3. Ohio State
4. Michigan State
5. UMass
6. Georgia
7. Purdue
8. Texas A&M
9. Maryland
10. Nebraska

https://www.universities.com/programs/turf-and-turfgrass-management-degrees


If a 4-year degree is important these are great. But if one is planning to go the maintenance route I would recommend a 2-Year associates or certificate program. Cheaper, shorter, all the stuff you really need. Fortunately golf course maintenance has not succumbed to credential inflation like so many careers. It really is all about experience. I would argue the optimal path is to get a 4-Year degree in something other than turf but tailor your work and internship stuff toward golf maintenance, and get the UC-Riverside or Rutgers 2-Yr certificate (I am biased). The problem with a 4-Yr degree in turf is you are kind of all-in, so if turf/architecture doesn't work out you don't have much optionality. Honestly, the marginal value of a 4 over a 2 in terms of job outcomes just really isn't there. People just want to see your experience first, where and who you worked for and in what role, and then whether or not you have any kind of certificate or degree. And yes, they will definitely call your references.


Oh and I know a couple successful graduates of the Sandhills Community College program (Associates) in Pinehurst. That's a cool program where internships are integrated into the curriculum and the geography couldn't be better with a billion great courses all around you.


How this relates to architecture is that it's vitally important to acquire experience and to network. So the quickest path to getting in the dirt is what you want to do. So an internship (either with the architect or working for the course) at a renovation or a new build and work with architects and shapers would be vastly more important than whether or not you go to Penn State vs. NC State for turf.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Tom_Doak

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2021, 07:27:34 AM »

1. Penn State, my alma mater
Pennsylvania State University-Main Campus offers 2 Turf And Turfgrass Management Degree programs. It's a large public university in a small city. In 2015, 29 students graduated in the study area of Turf And Turfgrass Management with students earning 29 Bachelor's degrees.
2. NC State
3. Ohio State
4. Michigan State
5. UMass
6. Georgia
7. Purdue
8. Texas A&M
9. Maryland
10. Nebraska

https://www.universities.com/programs/turf-and-turfgrass-management-degrees


Back in the day, a lot of the superintendents in the southeast came out of Lake City Community College in northern Florida.  Brian Silva taught there for a few years, and Bobby Weed went there.  Half our crew at Long Cove were interns from LCCC, compared to the one guy from Cornell.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2021, 07:38:32 AM »


If that turfgrass program had existed then and I'd have known about it, I'd probably have pursued it. But the thing that always scared me off was the construction side of the profession. I preferred sitting in a quiet room drawing course plans and then later on a computer.

Now I'm doing course renderings for Trackman for a living.... go figure.


I have spent about 5% of my time in the design business doing drawings, if that.  To succeed on your own is all about being willing to put in long days on the construction site, and then traveling to meet people.  It is a demanding career and not for everyone, but the same is true for superintendents and golf pros.  You have to really love golf to want to put up with all of that.

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2021, 09:57:02 AM »


If that turfgrass program had existed then and I'd have known about it, I'd probably have pursued it. But the thing that always scared me off was the construction side of the profession. I preferred sitting in a quiet room drawing course plans and then later on a computer.

Now I'm doing course renderings for Trackman for a living.... go figure.


I have spent about 5% of my time in the design business doing drawings, if that.  To succeed on your own is all about being willing to put in long days on the construction site, and then traveling to meet people.  It is a demanding career and not for everyone, but the same is true for superintendents and golf pros.  You have to really love golf to want to put up with all of that.


Tom, are there any formal licenses required for golf course architects? Or is it just obtaining permits for each project?
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Ronald Montesano

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« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 12:10:32 PM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Kalen Braley

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2021, 11:41:32 AM »
Another follow-on question:

What type of non-golf related jobs do others typically pursue a LA degree for?

Thanks in advance...

Brett Hochstein

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2021, 01:47:53 PM »
Lot of good responses so far, which kind of proves the point there really is no "right" way to enter the profession. Some of my thoughts on higher education:


For a degree type, it really depends on your ultimate aspirations.  If you see yourself doing full designs or redesigns, then landscape architecture is a good route.  Not so much the parking lot grading side of it, but the studio work and theory side of design challenges you to think about space, texture, and experience in ways that can ultimately benefit the golf experience.  Also, learning how to comprehensively develop those ideas and present is really good practice.  I was TERRIBLE at presenting the first two years but started to get the hang of it by the end.  That's a pretty big thing in a business that is (overly so, IMO) very much about selling. 


Alternatively, if you just want to be out there shaping or doing smaller projects, a turf degree may be the way to go.  It's more practical and related to the construction side of things, which is the real meat of all design work.  If truly an architecture geek, you may want to consider some of the UK programs.  They are not as rigorous academically, but the subject matter relates a lot better.  I did a bonus year over there after my undergrad, and in addition to learning a more hands-on, old-school style of green keeping, you take courses on golf course drainage, design (had to do a 9 or 18 hole routing), and a field based practical project on the actual college golf course.  I thought it was very on point and allowed easy access to study the great links nearby during downtime.  Also got hooked up as a volunteer greenkeeper out at St Andrews.


Even if you go the landscape architecture route, you would be wise to take as many turf and agronomy classes as you can.  It's just such a critical component of both the construction process and the end result.  Turf and the way architecture plays go hand in hand.  You also can't ignore the increasing premiums on water and the environment.  Knowing something about turf and soils helps you better understand that conversation.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2021, 04:05:02 PM »
Brett,


I would disagree with your statement of "not the parking lots grading of part of it[size=78%]."[/size]
[/size]


The way I practice, grading is design.  Not much will teach you the specifics of golf grading, but understanding the process will help.  Everyone here seems to think they will get great sand sites without permitting problems.  Not true.  There are probably more projects that need a detailed grading and drainage plan than not.  For most, you can't just wing it in the field.  You do 90% of the design in the office (after site visits, etc.) and finish the design in the field.  There are a few projects where you can't even deviate from the plan at all, most allow some, but not unlimited changes.


I also don't see how the other degrees do anything to train you for design, but do agree with Brett that carefully picking your other classes is a must.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JC Urbina

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2021, 04:49:29 PM »
Jeff,

My mentor in the golf design business was from a guy who retired from selling insurance and would became very successful building golf courses, His name was Peter Dye.

His son who I also worked for followed the same playbook in golf design but sought out different types of properties, he was also very successful giving neophytes a chance to build golf courses.

My only training that had anything to do with design was my degree in education.  I was a high school drafting teacher for three years and decided that's not what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. 

After I left the teaching field I went back to work for Pete and his son Perry. I was a design associate in the field which helped me understand what the construction side of golf  was all about and when I was asked to help draw large grading plans for jobs overseas, mostly in the Asian rim I understood how to draw and read topo maps so I was able to jump in with both feet.

I traveled and saw as many of the cool old golf courses as time allowed and using Pete Dye as my reference allowed me to see NGLA,Shinnecock and Pine Valley and many others, I still have the letter from Mr. Ransome inviting me to see PV. I even went to Pinehurst on a moments notice because Pete told me I needed to go see that golf course.


Started as a shaper for Pete Dye, drew plans for his son
Perry and also served as design associate in the field for Pete and Perry.  Who would have thought I would still be in the business 40 years later.I have a lot of young people emailing me asking how to get in the business. I could  never imagine they would get the lucky chances that I got.  I was running a job site at 26 years of age.  Shaping, directing large dirt movers, answering drainage questions, and learning just about everything you could learn on the JOB.  I am so lucky to have started in the business the way I did.  But remember they were building 100s of golf courses a year when I started, so the ability to work on several projects before I was 30 years old seems like a dream.

But I never try to dissuade anyone from seeking out there dream, I can only think of one guy who I said ARE YOU SURE you want to do this type of work? He was from Northern California,  helping me build Aetna Springs Resort.


Didn't know how serious he was back then and now I talk to him one or twice a year and marvel at his work, at some of the most famous clubs across the country including places like Wing Foot among others.  He was serious and he followed his dream, I am so happy for him. Not sure he attended any University but as others have told you a LA degree or civil engineering degree would certainly help.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 06:01:26 PM by JC Urbina »

Brett Hochstein

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2021, 05:15:53 PM »
Brett,


I would disagree with your statement of "not the parking lots grading of part of it[size=78%]."[/size]



The way I practice, grading is design.  Not much will teach you the specifics of golf grading, but understanding the process will help.  Everyone here seems to think they will get great sand sites without permitting problems.  Not true.  There are probably more projects that need a detailed grading and drainage plan than not.  For most, you can't just wing it in the field.  You do 90% of the design in the office (after site visits, etc.) and finish the design in the field.  There are a few projects where you can't even deviate from the plan at all, most allow some, but not unlimited changes.


I also don't see how the other degrees do anything to train you for design, but do agree with Brett that carefully picking your other classes is a must.


The other degrees don't particularly help you with design. That is on you to study--getting out to see new courses, reading different books, and doing internships with architects.  You should probably be doing that while studying landscape architecture, too.


For grading, I still haven't found a lot of my college site engineering work to be all that applicable to golf.  Granted I've largely been shaping for the last 10 years, but I've been involved enough to understand the process and sites we were working with.  Only a little of that work was sandy and more on the early side of that decade.  The last 6 or so years have been almost exclusively adobe clay sites, some of it God-awful and some in very flat areas.  Even in those instances though, we were just shooting grades while shaping, potholing for mainline tie-ins, and calculating what we needed to make work as we go.  To me, the % of time devoted in the office to the field for grading is probably closer to inverted to your numbers--10% in the office and 90% in the field.  I think you have to have a rough idea of the constraints going in, then you shape and drain as you go. Otherwise, you are running the risk of locking yourself into landforms that either don't look good or work for the interest of the golf hole.


The exception where I agree with you more is a new build on which the site is very flat and has heavier soils.  In that case you need to come up with a strategy (or strategies) for moving the water off the golf holes, and having a site engineering background can certainly help you there.  That's where I could see spending a lot more time in the office engineering a grading/drainage solution that works while simultaneously routing the holes.  Even so, I wonder what the breakdown in time percentage would be for me in that case. Maybe 30-40% office and the rest in the field?  If Tom Doak is reading this, I'd be curious to hear what his breakdown would be for Legends Heathland, which I think is a good case sample for this (even though that site is a bit sandier).


This all illustrates though just how interesting this field is.  There are so many different approaches to take to get to a grassed 18 holes, and I definitely like to hear about the ones different from mine, as there is almost always something to learn.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Ben Malach

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2021, 05:55:42 PM »
This has been a great thread but one key thing that has been missing is advice for non- American aspiring architects. My advice is to get a degree in either a 4-year degree in Turf or Landscape Architecture. This is only due to them qualifying you more easily for work visas. It is hard to continually work in this field unless you can get work visas to America, The U.K., and other golfing nations. I made the choice to go into a 3-year Landscape Design program which set me up to start my own firm right out of school. This was a great choice for gaining the skills that I use to this day and think that it provided me with the best education available. The downside is now I have been stuck in visa limbo for a couple of years. So before starting a program my advice is to check the international visa requirements and educate yourself to meet the visa requirements and supplement the education you need with low-cost online options like Skillshare and other programs.
@benmalach on Instagram and Twitter

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2021, 09:21:31 AM »
Jim,


I said somewhere here that the first qualification to be a gca is whether or not you let someone talk you out of being a gca.  The second is being optimistic enough to believe you can do it, and naive enough to believe you can't fail.


Ask most of us, and we will say what Tom did - you have to really love golf.  Although, I will say someone surprised me once by asking IF I had to choose, would I prefer to play golf or design golf courses, and it was actually a pretty easy answer for me - I would design golf courses.


In addition, I think the one thing no one has really mentioned here is that you really need to have some natural ability to design things. Designers just think a certain way.  There is such a thing as a design personality.  For instance, I told all my employees I would know in six months if they had what it took to work for me.  In truth, I only looked at ones with a great college portfolio, and even then, it took about six days most times to form an opinion. 


Just as playing golf at a PGA Tour level really doesn't make you a designer, neither does being able to grow grass, do engineering, or for that matter, be a landscape architect, although the latter has the closest curriculum you can find.  And, more importantly, could teach you whether you seem to have any design ability.  In taking with other LA grads, over many classes and many universities, most say that the cream of the crop rises, and that you could tell which of the students was going to be a designer some day.  In my class, 8 of 11 who started in LA as freshmen (about 45 in all) and got a degree went on to own their own firms, 2 became park directors of some kind, and one was a campus planner.  I imagine the same weeding out process happened in the Dye organization - and nearly all others.


Even an LA degree doesn't teach you to be a gca, even though it imparts some basic skills in grading, drainage, turf and soils, surveying and aerial photos, etc. if you tailor your degree. That said, I recall that an intelligent person with an interest in the field can learn.  There is plenty of evidence that Jack Nicklaus, for one, picked up all the technical details, even if he spent little time drafting.  In the end, I doubt anyone learns to be a gca other than the process you, Tom Doak, myself and most others go through of being an apprentice to someone who knows the craft and who really teaches you how to build a golf course.  And, even learning the design principles of balance and composition can be inherently known by a design personality, regardless of degree. 



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bruce Katona

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2021, 10:38:42 AM »
What major is desired? Landscape Architecture I assume? A Landscape Architecture degree here in the US provides a graduate with the required knowledge of draining, grading & civil engineering to get water to run downhill; which is deign 101.  I can't tell you how many construction sites I visited where someone was tying to make water run uphill without a pump. LA degree also teaches you about spatial design and thinking about how a hole corridor will look and how you can properly transition one corridor to the next. A civil engineering degree won't provide that thought process.
  • Is there a need for a Masters Degree in LA? If not please expound on others - Nope unless you want to teach or hold an undergrad degree in another subject an MLA isn't necessary IMHO.
  • Best university programs in terms of rigor and/or reputation?  I am a Rutgers alum.  In my year, there was one other grad who went to work for a well known GCA and lasted a few years.  He's now making a very good living doing new business development for a local architect after working in development for a firm that was Owners Rep/Developer of Home Depots & Lowes.
  • How important is the university for job placement/career?  Rutgers LA Alumni support is sorely lacking unfortunately. Their Turf program may be better
  • What type of internships with GCA's are recommended for college programs?  Hands on construction or working for a summer/year on a maintenance or construction crew will really tell you if you have the passion for this work.
  • Is it possible for break in without a college degree and if so what type of path would that look like? No opinion.
  • What professional societies are recommended to join/aspire to along one's career path (not looking for controversy here)? No opinion.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2021, 10:43:22 AM »
Bruce,


In my experience, the bachelors of LA focuses on the traditional nuts and bolts, while a Masters delves into "deeper territory" like environmentalism, urban planning, etc.  However, some who start LA at the masters level take the basic undergrad courses in addition to whatever Masters offerings there are, so if an aspirant has an undergrad degree in something else before making the plunge into LA, they would start at the Masters Level.  I doubt it brings any extra starting pay in the golf design field, but who knows.


I think your other original questions have been answered in parts in this thread.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JC Urbina

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2021, 11:46:59 AM »
Brett,


Your shaping knowledge is sometimes better than what any grading or civil engineering class could teach you relative to golf.


As you create features you are figuring out multiple grading problems and fixing them within five to ten minutes.  On larger dirt moving projects it may take you a day or two to transfer your energies from the machine to the surrounding topography. 


You need a civil engineer to help you with the entrance and exit points of your drainage dilemmas as it pertains to your property and the surrounding property but in the micro scale as you shape you are adjusting water flow with various degrees of complexity, they can you teach you the larger scale water flows but they don't teach you the intricacies of what you do several times a day.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2021, 01:23:00 PM »
Jim,


I prefer to do my own drainage plans, except when off-site issues and detention, etc. are issues.  I have informally surveyed gcas on how they do drainage, and am amazed that most just size pipe in the 4, 6, and 8" range, sometimes going to 12" after several connect.  My training included at least simple drainage formulas to correctly size and slope pipe to carry necessary flows.  Just guessing doesn't always cut it, and a well engineered course is one that (excluding floodplains in some cases) all drains at the same rate so play can rev back up ASAP.


Golf architecture is more than shaping!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2021, 10:55:12 PM »
This has been a great thread but one key thing that has been missing is advice for non- American aspiring architects. My advice is to get a degree in either a 4-year degree in Turf or Landscape Architecture. This is only due to them qualifying you more easily for work visas. It is hard to continually work in this field unless you can get work visas to America, The U.K., and other golfing nations. I made the choice to go into a 3-year Landscape Design program which set me up to start my own firm right out of school. This was a great choice for gaining the skills that I use to this day and think that it provided me with the best education available. The downside is now I have been stuck in visa limbo for a couple of years. So before starting a program my advice is to check the international visa requirements and educate yourself to meet the visa requirements and supplement the education you need with low-cost online options like Skillshare and other programs.


Ben:


This is a very good point.


In the 39 years since I graduated from Cornell the only time I have had to rely on that degree was when obtaining a work visa to rebuild the greens at St. George's in Toronto.  Canada actually required me to submit my college transcripts and having the technical degree was key to being approved.


Two of my associates had to go through the same visa process to do the shaping work, one of whom had no college degree, and they really raked him over the coals about that.  That was really kind of embarrassing since he was more able to do the job than anyone, but didn't have a degree to say so, and it opened my eyes as to who writes the rules!

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2021, 11:26:36 PM »
It’s call Golf Course DESIGN for a reason. You need some degree of design sense. How you get it is a personal matter. I studied graphic design and communication. I spent four years as an art director in television.

Far better to get a design background and then learn the ropes ... as opposed to learning the ropes and be lost in terms of design.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 10:02:42 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom_Doak

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2021, 06:47:16 AM »
Forrest:


Do you really think you can't learn DESIGN by studying lots of golf courses?


I will agree that lots of golfers will only see individual holes that way and not think about how they fit together into a plan, but clearly that was the way that Pete Dye and Jack Nicklaus and Tom Fazio all learned it - none of them had the fine qualifications that you and I do.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2021, 07:47:20 AM »
In the 39 years since I graduated from Cornell the only time I have had to rely on that degree was when obtaining a work visa to rebuild the greens at St. George's in Toronto.  Canada actually required me to submit my college transcripts and having the technical degree was key to being approved.
Two of my associates had to go through the same visa process to do the shaping work, one of whom had no college degree, and they really raked him over the coals about that.  That was really kind of embarrassing since he was more able to do the job than anyone, but didn't have a degree to say so, and it opened my eyes as to who writes the rules!
Sorry to hear this. Progress or regression within society? Pieces of parchment or smartly letterheaded paper can be faked however, whereas fakes on the ground are usually found out pretty quickly.
Atb

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2021, 10:07:50 AM »
Tom D — You can lean design a number of ways, and certainly a college degree of any sort is not what I was suggesting. I suppose some people can do that by studying courses. My point is that a background in "design" is probably a good beginning point for someone interested in pursuing a career in golf design.

Having some training or formal guidance to spacial and 3D "real world" problem solving is how I would describe this. Of course, as so many have re-stated here, so is a passion for the game. But, I would not say that having a passion for the game or golf courses is "all that's needed."

There will always be outliers who come into this profession — or any for that matter — by a series of events, contacts and opportunities. To some degree, that defines how I got my first assignment.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2021, 10:16:39 AM »
BTW, Brett H. has a lot of good advice in this posts here — and he should know because he represents the younger generation of those entering the profession.

Tom B. — No states license GCAs, yet there are few where GCAs have been accused of "practicing landscape architecture" and this causes all sorts of issues. I will not get into detail, but I can attest that in every single instance I have ever seen where a GCA as been brought before state boards, it has been a "sour grapes" situation where a licensed landscape architect feels unfairly passed over. Or, in a few cases, where a board of a club simply wants to stop a remodel in its tracks and throws wrenches — "non-licensed" — into the machine. It's a terrible waste of time and money. The simple answer to your question is that in most situations where permits are required, a licensed professional — landscape architect or civil engineer — is part of the team. And, of course, many GCAs are licensed as landscape architects. A few over history have been licensed civil engineers...Cal Olson, Jeff Hardin, Joe Finger, Bill Kerman are a few examples.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com