If you owned Riviera

[David_Tepper]

Interesting article on the Hathaway family and LAACO that mentions their ownership of Riviera and the sale of it in 1988:

https://labusinessjournal.com/news/2012/jun/25/l-legacy/

"Didn’t your company at one point also own other clubs including the Riviera Country Club and the California Yacht Club?

Yes, we did. But my father had sold most of these off. The Riviera Country Club was one of the last ones left over from our club expansion; we sold that in 1988. We still own the California Yacht Club."


Another interesting article (from 1986!):

https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1986/11/10/68261/index.htm

[David Ober]

Likely impractical, eradicate the kikuyu.

Lou,


Agree with you. Wasn’t a real fan of the kikuyu. Not sure I liked #6 either.


Playing a round behind Peter Falk was kind of interesting. Sure seemed like a pretty serious guy.

One of the great mysteries of my golfing life has been the stock hate of the playing surface at Riviera. It fit my taste perfectly and is running like hell today.

Like you, I love the playing surface at Riv. And if you truly play the ball low, you CAN play running shots -- at least I remember being able to on certain shots. There are definitely greens where that doesn't work, but some it does. It's also not at all difficult to putt through Kikuyu from a reasonable distance.

[AChao]

I'd widen fairways and maybe lengthen some holes.  I'd also do a tee time lottery a couple of times of year so more people can see it -- playing it is still different from seeing on tv or watching the tournament.

[Pete Lavallee]

The sad thing is that those lucky enough to play there in an outings on a Monday have to play to the permanent temporary greens on 6, 10 & 16.

[Lou_Duran]

David O-


You do realize that if the kikuyu was universally lauded, John would likely be ragging on it, right?


I can't remember the grass on another course ever being a dominant subject of discussion in a broadcast.  Kikuyu reduces the ground game to one of chance vs skill, and puts inordinate pressure on the aerial game to hit very precise spots to the greens.  Even on downwind, down canyon holes that reduced the long 4s to hitting wedges on the approaches, the word's best players couldn't hold the greens.  Where the conditions called for landing a shot short and hopping it on, the kikuyu wouldn't allow it.
 
Personally, I don't care if they shoot -20 so long as the design of the course is not compromised.  I'd much rather see a mix of offense and defense, not based on the grass, but on angles, conditions, hole characteristics, and the players' unique abilities.


So, if it was my course, I'd be looking into the feasibility of re-grassing the course, greens included.  I would also look at possibilities of slowing down the fairways at 275+ yards from the tee for tournament play.  Of course, if John Kavanaugh and his member buddies were good with the course as is, maybe I'd stay with the status quo.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Pretty eash one for me.  There are about 20 things that need to happen on the golf course.  A restoration from the Fazio look and alterations back to a Thomas/Bell design would solve about 15 of the 20.  Think LACC North.

[Lou_Duran]

Assuming that FDS has not yet totally set in, what would be the top few specific things that you as an owner would change?  I suspect that the kikuyu was already flourishing during your tenure.  Did it not force your style of play?


I still remember John Bernhadt back in 2004 hitting a nice little hook drive into #4 (220+ into the wind) only for the ball to take a small hop just right of the green and settle about one yard further right.  I doubt that Hogan would consider this Redan the way it plays today to be the best par 3 in the world.

[Cliff Walston]

https://grantland.com/features/the-veil-opulence-whether-really-relate-everyone-sports/

That was very interesting in a different context.  But I think it is fun to play fantasy "what if."  Not many of us will ever own a top golf course.  But I personally enjoy the day dream over a good bourbon.

[Mark Kiely]

While we're at it, anyone know the history of kikuyu at Riviera? What was the original grass and when did kikuyu take over? Was it intentional or did it take over on its own?


Pardon my ignorance if this is well documented.

[Pete Lavallee]

My understanding is that it was planted on the Polo Field and migrated to the golf course and from there it spread to every golf course in So. Cal. which couldn’t afford to eradicate it! The Kikuyu fairways at Torrey Pines were perfect for the 2008 US Open, but it took 6 months of cart path only to get to that point. As soon as carts were allowed back on the course they went downhill fast. Who would have thought such a tough grass is intolerant of cart traffic! The Kikuyu fairways at Coronado GC are very good, especially in winter when other courses such as Balboa Park have a thin layer of turf. Of course Torrey and Balboa dethatch and overseed where as Coronado just leaves them alone!

[David Ober]

David O-


You do realize that if the kikuyu was universally lauded, John would likely be ragging on it, right?


I can't remember the grass on another course ever being a dominant subject of discussion in a broadcast.  Kikuyu reduces the ground game to one of chance vs skill, and puts inordinate pressure on the aerial game to hit very precise spots to the greens.  Even on downwind, down canyon holes that reduced the long 4s to hitting wedges on the approaches, the word's best players couldn't hold the greens.  Where the conditions called for landing a shot short and hopping it on, the kikuyu wouldn't allow it.
 
Personally, I don't care if they shoot -20 so long as the design of the course is not compromised.  I'd much rather see a mix of offense and defense, not based on the grass, but on angles, conditions, hole characteristics, and the players' unique abilities.


So, if it was my course, I'd be looking into the feasibility of re-grassing the course, greens included.  I would also look at possibilities of slowing down the fairways at 275+ yards from the tee for tournament play.  Of course, if John Kavanaugh and his member buddies were good with the course as is, maybe I'd stay with the status quo.

Lou,


I, too, enjoy the ground game and love playing a course like Rustic Canyon.


I also love Riviera -- with Kikuyu.


And you are mistaken about Kikuyu and its effect on spin. There is no negative effect whatsoever on full shots. Playing from the Kikuyu fairways at Riviera is similar to playing Zoysia fairways -- you get near perfect lies on almost every shot. The rough can get squirrelly, but the fairways are perfect to hit from.


The reason the pros were struggling to hold those greens had nothing to do with the fairways and everything to do with just how firm those greens were. Winter in SoCal means you can really push the firmness on poa greens, and those were so, so firm. All you had to do was listen to gauge that we were not dealing with a normal Tour stop last weekend.


Finally, for those of you who have not played Riviera, the Kikuyu there is not your "ordinary" Kikuyu. I have heard, but can't confirm, that they use lots of growth retardant on their fairways to keep them tight and not allow the "leaf"(?) to get too broad. It is a wonderful surface from which to hit golf shots -- for me. ;-)

[Lou_Duran]

David,


I guess I didn't convey my thoughts on kikuyu clearly.


It is hard to be mistaken about something I didn't address, i.e. putting spin on a ball hit from kikuyu fairways.  It goes without saying that the more the ball sits on top of the grass, the easier it is to impart spin.  The link below speaks to this (and the embedded link is also of interest).


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/kikuyu-grass-riviera-country-club


I never suggested that the inability to hold the greens had anything to do with the kikuyu.  I did mean to state that the inability of being able to land the ball short of the green and have it hop on is a problem- i.e. that unlike the Poa greens, the kikuyu aprons and approaches kill the ball at impact in unpredictable ways and forces the aerial game.


Two very different courses in style and shot options, Rustic Canyon and Riviera.  That is not to say that one can't like both.  I suspect that Riviera with bermuda fairways would have some playing similarities on the approach shots.  My bet is that Riviera with bermuda fairways and firm conditioning would be a lot more fun, probably easier for the pros, and harder for us mere mortals.

[Jeff Schley]

Most of us have played courses with kikuyu grass so it isn't an experience issue, as So Cal particularly has courses with kikuyu grass. IMO it is the way the course keeps their conditioning that impacts the play ability of how the grass impacts your game/strategy. At Riviera the rough first cut allows it to sit up and get a lot of spin, the deep rough is a mixed bag as you could gouge it out. However, with the gouging it out the green surround can be like a sponge and stop the run up nad not release. Chipping around the green it very tough as you have to pick many of the chips which are uncomfortable for us amateurs.

I find kikuyu great for fairway lies as it props it up nicely and cleanly, but for not you have to fly the ball quite a bit more as it doesn't get the bouncing release with other grasses.
I wished we had a grass testing lab with measurements and data similar to the robot arm for clubs. Launch balls at different strains of grass with the same speed, arc, ball characteristics to turn of the same length/grain orientation, angle, humidity etc. See what happens. I don't this has been measured much. A frontier to explore to find data and get generalities to base your decisions for course setup and players to put in their mind when playing shots.

[David Ober]

David,


I guess I didn't convey my thoughts on kikuyu clearly.


It is hard to be mistaken about something I didn't address, i.e. putting spin on a ball hit from kikuyu fairways.  It goes without saying that the more the ball sits on top of the grass, the easier it is to impart spin.  The link below speaks to this (and the embedded link is also of interest).


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/kikuyu-grass-riviera-country-club


I never suggested that the inability to hold the greens had anything to do with the kikuyu.  I did mean to state that the inability of being able to land the ball short of the green and have it hop on is a problem- i.e. that unlike the Poa greens, the kikuyu aprons and approaches kill the ball at impact in unpredictable ways and forces the aerial game.


Two very different courses in style and shot options, Rustic Canyon and Riviera.  That is not to say that one can't like both.  I suspect that Riviera with bermuda fairways would have some playing similarities on the approach shots.  My bet is that Riviera with bermuda fairways and firm conditioning would be a lot more fun, probably easier for the pros, and harder for us mere mortals.

Sorry, Lou, I read your first reply to me as you thinking that Kikuyu had a role in the pros not being able to hold the greens at Riv. My apologies.


David