OT - It does sneak up on you

[Tim Martin]

I’m not a basketball junkie but wonder where Pete Maravich stacks up with some of the other names already mentioned. Was there a better no look passer? Maybe Earl Monroe.

The only player I ever saw who was in Maravich' league as a ball handler was Curly Neal with the Globetrotters. He become almost a curiosity but might have been the most "skilled" offensive player ever.


As to no look passers, I'll see your Pearl and raise you one--Pearl Washington at Syracuse. From the same era, Dean Meminger.


But the best no look passer I ever saw was Larry Bird.

JM-All great picks. You remember Ernie Degregorio?

[John Kirk]

I remember Ernie DiGregorio.  My Pop took me to see him play with the Buffalo Braves in his first or second year in the league.  He was very entertaining, and the Braves were the highest scoring team in the league.

They were great fun to watch.  Bob McAdoo was the center, and led the league in scoring three straight seasons.  He was a great long range shooter as a young man.

[JMEvensky]

I was at the Checker Dome in St. Louis when Memphis State beat Ernie D's Providence team in the 1973 semis. He definitely deserves at least a mention in this conversation. Slowest "great" point guard I ever saw.

[JMEvensky]

And speaking of 1973, the finals was Bill Walton going 21/22 (?) from the floor--BW also deserves a mention in this conversation. Maybe the most fundamentally sound center ever--he was never out of position.


Hopefully Lynn Shackelford sees this thread and chimes in. His insight would be more valuable than anyone else's. Plus, how often do you get to talk college hoops with a guy who has (almost literally) a handful of rings?

[Steve Lang]

   Walton also never out of position at Dead concerts!  Always visible front center

[Phil Burr]

I can't forget Randy Smith on those Buffalo teams; he might have been faster than Usain Bolt!


And Providence had a nice run with Ernie D, Kevin Stacom and, most unforgettably, Marvin "Bad News" Barnes.

[Tim Leahy]

Love this thread. See my avatar that I have had for the last 10 years. Maybe we should start a Basketball Atlas forum.
My two cents:
Became a basketball fan at 8 in 1968 because of Wilt. 7 foot humans fascinated me. Wilt, West, Baylor and Goodrich made me a Laker fan. Then came the greatest scorer of all time, Kareem. Magic made the Lakers champs and Bird was his nemesis. Both were great passers but I am sure learned that from Marivich.
Jordan may be the GOAT until Lebron catches him but nobody was more of a competitor than Kobe.

[JMEvensky]

I can't forget Randy Smith on those Buffalo teams; he might have been faster than Usain Bolt!


And Providence had a nice run with Ernie D, Kevin Stacom and, most unforgettably, Marvin "Bad News" Barnes.

Barnes got hurt in the semis--it's a different game if he played 40 minutes. Ernie D was unstoppable, 35(?) points and 15 (?) assists.


Bob Costas wrote a book about announcing the St. Louis ABA team games when Barnes played--he was next level crazy.

[John Kirk]

Here's the box score for the Memphis State - Providence game:

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/1973-03-24-memphis.html

During the Buffalo Braves game I saw in Oakland around 1974, I specifically remember a spectacular dunk by Randy Smith.  He was only about 6-2, but on a drive to the basket he took off about 8-12 feet from the hoop and rammed it through.  For many years I considered it the most impressive dunk I ever saw.

Smith was quite the iron man.  I looked at his stats just now.  He played 82 games ten years in a row.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithra01.html 

[Phil Burr]

The Costas story about Barnes' refusal to board a team flight from Louisville to St. Louis because the arrival time was earlier than the departure time (due to crossing time zones) is one of the all timers.  If I remember correctly, Barnes said something like "I'm not getting in some time machine" and made his way back to St. Louis by car (rental or taxi, I'm not sure).  Nevertheless, HOF talent whose demons sent a promising career off the rails.

[Jason Thurman]

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the amusing post.  I'm not a huge fan of Harden, but he sure is good.  I especially appreciate the sentiment that some of his antics would be unacceptable on the playground.

I will stand by my suggestion that he is quite influential, in the way he has used the rules to his benefit in numerous ways.  Who were you hoping would win the East?  Embiid keeps getting better, but I'm not a big fan of the 76ers and I don't think they can do it.  Maybe Boston will get it going as the year drags on.  I have no confidence in the Bucks.  If Giannis made 80% of his free throws it might be different.

I’m obsessed with this 76ers team and the Simmons Embiid pairing. It has fascinated me deeply for 4+ years now, in every evolution of the roster. I don’t know if I root for them or like the pairing, but I’m completely compelled by it. And every now and then I’ll think “Brooklyn can’t guard Embiid. What if he averaged like 50 for the series? They could win!”


And then I think “Where will the other 80 points come from?” They’re tremendous defensively but I just don’t think they can slow the Brooklyn machine. If the three impossibly talented and moody dudes are all healthy, I just can’t see a real path to keep them out of the Finals.


I believed in Milwaukee last year but the holes are glaring at me. Giannis is wonderful but he can’t go get me a crunch time bucket. Middleton is too prone to the 12 pts on 4 for 16 shooting night. Jrue isn’t quite good enough to be the difference maker. And I sorta hate the supporting cast, especially when stakes are high. They should never have let Brogdon go.


Maybe if Indy had Bubble Warren and a pissed off Caris Levert. There’s a really interesting hypothetical matchup there given Brooklyn’s lack of size on defense, but realistically it won’t materialize.

[Jeff Schley]

Great trip down memory lane. If we are just talking best passers in the history of the NBA, what about the Houdini of the Hardwood?
Also would put Nash and Stockton in the conversation.

I like Maravich so much, saw a highlight film of him at LSU playing of his dad Press and the guy had handles big time.

[Ira Fishman]

If we are going back to Pistol Pete era, hard not to talk about Calvin Murphy and Nate Archibald. What both accomplished at their size was pretty special. Plus they were a blast to watch.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

What about Earl Manigault the original GOAT and Rucker Park tournament legend? Sorry guys as this is outside of the NBA and probably not relevant to the discussion.

[Kalen Braley]

Kareem's skyhook was certainly indefensible and no doubt punished plenty of teams with it.

I used it with decent effectiveness in my street ball games in my teenage years ( mid-80s) as I was taller than most on the court, (even if I didn't/couldn't use it organized games cause the coaches would get pissed.)  Prior to the last 5-8 years where most shots are 3s and near the restricted area, I always wondered why other elite players never put it in their arsenal.

[JMEvensky]

If we are going back to Pistol Pete era, hard not to talk about Calvin Murphy and Nate Archibald. Few years earlier but what both accomplished at their size was pretty special. Plus they were a blast to watch.


Ira

I'd bet on NA against anyone dribbling a basketball from one end of the floor to the other--fastest point guard I ever saw.

[Phil Burr]

Didn’t Tiny once lead the league in scoring with about 34 per game while also leading the league in assists?  That’s someone who knew how to make good decision with the ball in his hands.

[Ira Fishman]

Didn’t Tiny once lead the league in scoring with about 34 per game while also leading the league in assists?  That’s someone who knew how to make good decision with the ball in his hands.

Yep. 1972-73. Good memory Phil.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

Didn’t Tiny once lead the league in scoring with about 34 per game while also leading the league in assists?  That’s someone who knew how to make good decision with the ball in his hands.

Yep. 1972-73. Good memory Phil.


Ira

As a lifelong Knicks fan 1973 was a triumphant year and the last time they won an NBA title. Frazier and Monroe were one of the great backcourts of not only that era but in history. I was thrilled to see Monroe make his way to New York from the then Baltimore Bullets.

[Jeff Schley]

Kareem's skyhook was certainly indefensible and no doubt punished plenty of teams with it.

I used it with decent effectiveness in my street ball games in my teenage years ( mid-80s) as I was taller than most on the court, (even if I didn't/couldn't use it organized games cause the coaches would get pissed.)  Prior to the last 5-8 years where most shots are 3s and near the restricted area, I always wondered why other elite players never put it in their arsenal.

Kalen I totally agree that why would players not develop this shot after the 30 plus years Kareem has been retired? This article gives some very insightful reasons as to why: https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2020/3/27/21191474/skyhook-kareem-abdul-jabbar

I think the two I extract from this are: It isn't cool to shoot the skyhook, the off arm would be called as an offensive foul as Kareem used it in his era, it takes time to develop as a player so teams don't dump it into the post enough to develop it.
With so many fundamentals lacking in the NBA today due to the one and done, big men take several years to catch up and round out their games if they do it at all. They are still growing physically when they come in at 19/20 as well, bulking up for the rigors of the season. They sure as heck don't learn it in HS or college, so as a result it just doesn't manifest itself in anyone's game when you factor in the preference for jacking 3's and dunking.

[John Kirk]

What about Earl Manigault the original GOAT and Rucker Park tournament legend? Sorry guys as this is outside of the NBA and probably not relevant to the discussion.

...

As a lifelong Knicks fan 1973 was a triumphant year and the last time they won an NBA title. Frazier and Monroe were one of the great backcourts of not only that era but in history. I was thrilled to see Monroe make his way to New York from the then Baltimore Bullets.

Tim,

I thought I'd respond to your comments, since no one else has.

I don't know anything about Earl Manigault, except for reading about him.  Great in the big city, but could he have taken his game on the road and played against the best?

Earl Monroe was the kind of player that you saw on television and tried to mimic his style, his moves.  My Pop took me to a Knicks game once around the same time in 1973 or 1974, just as I was becoming engrossed in basketball.  So I saw Earl Monroe and Walt Frazier play together once.  The general feeling among people I knew is that Bill Bradley and Dave DeBusschere were almost as important.  Bill Bradley had a very compact game, all efficiency and purpose.  That team also had another brilliant mind, Phil Jackson, who made an impression coming off the bench.

By the time I saw him, Monroe's knees were shot.  He was big, about 6-3, but I doubt he could dunk a ball then.  My guess is he could barely touch the rim.


I would much rather have Walt Frazier leading my team than Pete Maravich.  Without breaking it down into pieces, I say he was a much better player.

I feel a bit sheepish about sharing these experiences, when we would drive up to Oakland and see the Warriors play a few times a year.  These days, basketball has become a luxury outing, where tickets in the lower bowl of the arena are very expensive.  Back then, tickets were very reasonable.  I'd guess Dad paid 8-12 dollars per ticket to see the games.  Now those tickets in San Francisco are probably 300-500 apiece. 

[Tim Martin]

What about Earl Manigault the original GOAT and Rucker Park tournament legend? Sorry guys as this is outside of the NBA and probably not relevant to the discussion.

...

As a lifelong Knicks fan 1973 was a triumphant year and the last time they won an NBA title. Frazier and Monroe were one of the great backcourts of not only that era but in history. I was thrilled to see Monroe make his way to New York from the then Baltimore Bullets.

Tim,

I thought I'd respond to your comments, since no one else has.

I don't know anything about Earl Manigault, except for reading about him.  Great in the big city, but could he have taken his game on the road and played against the best?

Earl Monroe was the kind of player that you saw on television and tried to mimic his style, his moves.  My Pop took me to a Knicks game once around the same time in 1973 or 1974, just as I was becoming engrossed in basketball.  So I saw Earl Monroe and Walt Frazier play together once.  The general feeling among people I knew is that Bill Bradley and Dave DeBusschere were almost as important.  Bill Bradley had a very compact game, all efficiency and purpose.  That team also had another brilliant mind, Phil Jackson, who made an impression coming off the bench.

By the time I saw him, Monroe's knees were shot.  He was big, about 6-3, but I doubt he could dunk a ball then.  My guess is he could barely touch the rim.


I would much rather have Walt Frazier leading my team than Pete Maravich.  Without breaking it down into pieces, I say he was a much better player.

I feel a bit sheepish about sharing these experiences, when we would drive up to Oakland and see the Warriors play a few times a year.  These days, basketball has become a luxury outing, where tickets in the lower bowl of the arena are very expensive.  Back then, tickets were very reasonable.  I'd guess Dad paid 8-12 dollars per ticket to see the games.  Now those tickets in San Francisco are probably 300-500 apiece.

John-Thanks for your thoughts. There were skeptics when Monroe went to the Knicks of him and Frazier not being able to coexist and they gelled beautifully.