[Niall C]

On another thread Ally Mc and "Old" Tom D were discussing Eddie Hackett, that doyen of Irish golf course design. The list of courses he designed or re-designed is lengthy and some of the courses have a good rep. I also understand that most or at least a significant percentage are links courses. My question is not so much are those courses any good but could or should they have been better ?
 
In asking that I'm thinking back to the very small percentage of his courses that I've actually played, those being Murvagh, Carne and Enniscrone. I enjoyed the courses well enough but with the exception of the new nine at Carne that Ally had a hand in I can't say I was too impressed with the designs.
 
While a limited budget might go some way to explaining some of the work I'm still not convinced by some of the detail. I blagged the following quote from wikipedia;
 
"I find that nature is the best architect . . . I try to dress up what the Good Lord provides"
 
Is that last bit true or just a bit of Irish blarney ?
 
Thoughts ?
 
Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Mostly he worked on projects with tiny budgets, and (I suspect) local bulldozer operators who might never have built a golf course before.  He is rightly beloved in Ireland for doing all that work without concern to making $$ at it.


My impression is that he was good at using the natural features but not so good at changing them where necessary.

[Brock Lynch]

For Tom,


Please recommend three Eddie Hacket courses that you have seen.

[Tom_Doak]

Please recommend three Eddie Hacket courses that you have seen.

Murvagh, Connemara, Carne.


I've also seen Ballyferriter, Waterville and the original St Patrick's.  Carne, Ballyferriter and St Patrick's were the most impacted by budget.

[jeffwarne]

Like anything, there is an evolution.
I've played at least 7-8 original Hackett designs and many more he altered.(or twice that if you use Wikipedia which list multiple courses twice by different names )


I've enjoyed every single one of them, though I'm sure more trained eyes than mine could find fault.




As Tom points out, I'm sure most of his equipment operators and crew didn't have a lot of golf construction or even golf playing experience.


Put another way, imagine if Eddy Hackett had Brian Schneider or Eric Iverson doing the shaping and our management of the project after he left.
Then of course there's the budget....

[Tommy Williamsen]

I enjoyed Dingle (Ceann Sibeal) and Donegal as well. They aren't world beaters but they do add to the sum total of very good courses on the island.

[Tom_Doak]

I enjoyed Dingle (Ceann Sibeal) and Donegal as well.

Dingle (Ceann Sibeal) is in the town of Ballyferriter, so we are referring to the same course, in case others are not aware.

[jeffwarne]

I enjoyed Dingle (Ceann Sibeal) and Donegal as well.

Dingle (Ceann Sibeal) is in the town of Ballyferriter, so we are referring to the same course, in case others are not aware.

That gives the course at Dingle THREE names! I had never heard the reference to Ballyferriter.
One more for Wikipedia.

[Thomas Dai]

Not to criticise Eddie Hacketts work, but I wonder about a comparison between his work and that of James Braid. Often on pretty poor terrain, and like EH often with very little money, Braid produced some pretty amazing work.
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

That gives the course at Dingle THREE names! I had never heard the reference to Ballyferriter.
One more for Wikipedia.

I once saw Teeth of the Dog, Cajuiles, and Casa de Campo listed as three separate courses in a book, when in fact they all referred to the same place.  That is not a good marketing strategy!  I don't think the golf course uses the Ballyferriter name but I think a lot of the locals do, since it's several miles from the town of Dingle and not everyone is going to use the Gaelic name.

[Tom_Doak]

Not to criticise Eddie Hacketts work, but I wonder about a comparison between his work and that of James Braid. Often on pretty poor terrain, and like EH often with very little money, Braid produced some pretty amazing work.

That's a very good point, actually.  Quite a bit of Braid's work has the same crude sort of construction -- thinking of something like the 11th green at Pennard, which I admire.  I guess I think differently about a feature that was built that way in 1935 as opposed to one built in 1975.

[jeffwarne]

Not to criticise Eddie Hacketts work, but I wonder about a comparison between his work and that of James Braid. Often on pretty poor terrain, and like EH often with very little money, Braid produced some pretty amazing work.

That's a very good point, actually.  Quite a bit of Braid's work has the same crude sort of construction -- thinking of something like the 11th green at Pennard, which I admire.  I guess I think differently about a feature that was built that way in 1935 as opposed to one built in 1975.

I think we have to consider the era each were built in.
So many times I've played a course I thoroughly enjoyed, only to find out later James Braid either designed or modified it.But to be fair,there was a lot of good work being done for many years before and in the Golden ages for James Braid to draw on and see, especially where he worked all over the UK.
Eddy Hackett was working in the 60's-90's not exactly a prolific era for achitecture, with very few other courses and peers doing great work around him in Ireland to draw on as examples and inspiration.

[Jim Sherma]

I like Dingle and thought there is a lot of good architecture, found or built, on the ground there. Not a lot of movement in the ground to have worked with, assuming it wasn’t flattened out during construction. Certainly enough interest to make it worth a round or two.


Have to say I liked the Hackett holes at Enniscrone better than the newer dunes holes. Less eye candy, but better golf.


I also liked the Hackett holes at Carne better than most here. Could there be more foo-foo bunker edges or interesting tie-in’s on the green pads, sure. The routing is good and it’s a course that plays well across a somewhat difficult and at times very windy site.



I’ve never heard Dingle referred to as Ballyferriter, I thought there might be something new to find.

[Niall C]

As Tom points out, I'm sure most of his equipment operators and crew didn't have a lot of golf construction or even golf playing experience.


Put another way, imagine if Eddy Hackett had Brian Schneider or Eric Iverson doing the shaping and our management of the project after he left.
Then of course there's the budget....

So are we saying all Hackett did was put 18 stakes in the ground ? If so that puts a lot of onus on his routing skills. Are they all that good ?


With a lot of links courses the joy is in the run of the ball and natural features. Let me suggest that it is hard to lay out (I say lay-out as that is what most folk seem to think he has largely done, rather than "construction") a poor links course as opposed to a merely OK course. A good/great architect however can enhance the natural features or utilise them in such a way as to make the course much much more. Does Hackett belong in that bracket ?


Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Eddie Hackett was the catalyst for bringing golf to numerous communities (with little or no development budget) after the sport exploded in popularity in Ireland with the 1960 Canada Cup. For that, he is rightfully revered right through the island.


Could his designs have been better? Well, as Tom says, he used the natural land very well (he had an aversion to changing it). His routings are very good. I’m sure that in many cases, there were better solutions out there. He did route occasionally awkward looking holes.


He did not have an eye for strategy in his hazard placements. Generally speaking, he wanted bunkers placed as guidance rather than to materially affect the decisions on how to play the hole. He also (through budget or just lack of presence) did not seem to prioritise construction detail. In most cases, locals were left to build the courses but Eddie certainly did not insist or have the inclination to prevent some of the very artificial / rudimentary shaping.


So sure, his courses could have been better. But because he did so little, and despite - or maybe even because of - the basic construction where he did move earth, his courses are very difficult to date to any particular era. And that holds a lot of weight with me on links land. Almost every modern designer (most with considerable more skill at their disposal) has gone on to do “too much” with linksland, therefore dating their course to a modern era.


For this reason, we should herald his designs. They could all be “improved” in many areas but better to be a little reserved in suggesting these improvements lest you end up modernising.


In the end, I want any links course I work on to hide the “design / artistry”. It’s way too easy a landscape to go to town on.

[Tom_Doak]

Eddy Hackett was working in the 60's-90's not exactly a prolific era for achitecture, with very few other courses around him in Ireland to draw on as examples and inspiration.

That's possibly the weakest argument you have ever made here.  You're a huge fan of all those quirky old courses that existed in Ireland long before Eddie Hackett started building his.  And I would think he was familiar with Portmarnock, Lahinch, and Ballybunion.

[Tom_Doak]

I also liked the Hackett holes at Carne better than most here. Could there be more foo-foo bunker edges or interesting tie-in’s on the green pads, sure. The routing is good and it’s a course that plays well across a somewhat difficult and at times very windy site.

I am not referring to the edging of the bunkers.  I am talking about having holes like the 17th [IIRC] where the landing area is too steep to hold a ball, and building an awkward shelf into it to try and fix the problem.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Eddy Hackett was working in the 60's-90's not exactly a prolific era for achitecture, with very few other courses around him in Ireland to draw on as examples and inspiration.

That's possibly the weakest argument you have ever made here.  You're a huge fan of all those quirky old courses that existed in Ireland long before Eddie Hackett started building his.  And I would think he was familiar with Portmarnock, Lahinch, and Ballybunion.

In fact he had worked at Royal Dublin and Portmarnock.

[Sean_A]

I enjoyed Dingle (Ceann Sibeal) and Donegal as well.

Dingle (Ceann Sibeal) is in the town of Ballyferriter, so we are referring to the same course, in case others are not aware.

That gives the course at Dingle THREE names! I had never heard the reference to Ballyferriter.
One more for Wikipedia.

+1, I was just going to look up Ballyferriter!

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Eddy Hackett was working in the 60's-90's not exactly a prolific era for achitecture, with very few other courses around him in Ireland to draw on as examples and inspiration.

That's possibly the weakest argument you have ever made here.  You're a huge fan of all those quirky old courses that existed in Ireland long before Eddie Hackett started building his.  And I would think he was familiar with Portmarnock, Lahinch, and Ballybunion.

EH was the pro at Portmarnock for quite some time. It would be difficult to believe he didn’t see for example what Colt had done in the North or Simpson at Baltray. Mind the RoI economic situation might have been different in previous times in comparison to when EH was undertaking most of his work.
Atb


PS - I’m a big fan of what he achieved in the circumstances with the original 18 at Carne (with the exception of the 7th).

[Rory Connaughton]

I'm not sure that any analysis of Eddie Hackett's work on the west coast of Ireland can be undertaken without first emphasizing the economic and social status of the region at the time. Contrast Lahinch (garrison) and Rosses Point (garrison and prosperous town) with their golden age histories golf populations and capital, Hackett was working at a time when the region was devoid of capital, had been decimated by emigration and many of the communities lacked a significant golf culture. As I understand it, he was often sent out by the Irish Tourist Board when these communities got behind golf as a potential driver of tourism. If you read the histories of many of the courses/clubs that he was involved in, they could scarcely afford the equipment necessary to maintain their courses once built let alone the detail that we have come to expect from the greats of this era or the golden age. It wasn't until after Ballybunion became a household name that the rest of these courses started getting a little attention (and Ballybunion itself came to the states to raise capital).


Hackett was certainly exposed to great architecture as a professional at Portmarnock and as a tournament golfer so one would be hard pressed to argue that he didn't know what was possible on some of these sites but he made do with what was available to him. 


The original Hackett 18 at Enniscrone had a number of strong holes that are no longer part of the routing (post Steele) and there are some excellent holes of those that were retained. I am thinking in particular of 5 (great use of the dune left, the burn and the mound right for those familiar with the hole), the 10th, 13th and 17th also stand out.


Carne, Enniscrone, Ballyliffin, Connemara etc., I think instead of asking whether Hackett was any good, we should be marveling at just how good he was given the resources at his disposal. He was the ultimate minimalist and had a great understanding of what he was being asked to do for that region and he succeeded in spades (if the attention these courses have received over the last 20 years are any measure).


 

[jeffwarne]

Eddy Hackett was working in the 60's-90's not exactly a prolific era for achitecture, with very few other courses around him in Ireland to draw on as examples and inspiration.

That's possibly the weakest argument you have ever made here.  You're a huge fan of all those quirky old courses that existed in Ireland long before Eddie Hackett started building his.  And I would think he was familiar with Portmarnock, Lahinch, and Ballybunion.

I consider that high praise indeed! (if you consider that my weakest argument ever made here )


I'd add Baltray,The Island,Carlow, Layton and Bettystown, as well as Royal Dublin to your argument.I would suspect he didn't make many trips to Northern Ireland in that era-most Irish I know did not.
I still think we can agree that Hackett had FAR less great historical architectural quantity to observe, but I will concede there were slightly more than "a few" examples.

That said, I still believe Braid had far more peers doing good-great work, and surely the work of one's peers inspires and drives a desire to compete in creativity, or at least better work. That's more what I was getting at.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Rory,


Everything you say is true apart from the bit about detail and budget: You can get the detail right for the same cost as you can get the detail wrong.


But agreed, it’s much harder when the people who are building the course have never built a course before and you are not there on site to guide them as they build it.


I just don’t think the detail was that important to him.


Tommy,


There’s no confirmation that Hackett advised on any changes at Portmarnock. Some suggest he altered the 8th and 9th greens on the third nine but that makes little sense to me.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Rory,


Everything you say is true apart from the bit about detail and budget: You can get the detail right for the same cost as you can get the detail wrong.


But agreed, it’s much harder when the people who are building the course have never built a course before and you are not there on site to guide them as they build it.


I just don’t think the detail was that important to him.


Tommy,


There’s no confirmation that Hackett advised on any changes at Portmarnock. Some suggest he altered the 8th and 9th greens on the third nine but that makes little sense to me.

I didn't mean to imply that he did any design work there. He had been the pro there before ww2.

[Thomas Dai]

Worth reading this brief history of Enniscrone GC - https://www.enniscronegolf.com/history/ - and how the Club and the areas economic fortunes have ebbed and flowed over the decades and Eddie Hacketts role there.
Atb

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