Reed Does It Again

[Kalen Braley]

Michael you said:

"Patrick Reed, in all his glory, is a ferocious competitor. His wife, caddie, instructor, family deal...he doesn't give a wit, he wants to win."

I think this narrative, which I agree with, works against him in situations like these.  Given he doesn't give a wit about what anyone else thinks with anything else, it could also be inferred he doesn't care about if he's right or wrong in these situations, even if it may be a grey area. And this fits the pattern of his past deeds where he's done questionable things on the golf course.

P.S.  I can't confirm if true on video but Brandel said he was also "palming the ball" after he picked it up, which if true would certainly act to have a cleaning affect on it...

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'm not a fan of Reed's but I wonder if folks don't go out of their way to find fault because of his abrasive personality.

[Rob Marshall]

For those who question if you can lift a ball to see if it is embedded, please see Rule 16.4 which was put into the Rules in 2019 to replace Decision 20-1/0.7 in the old Rules.
As for those who think you should always have to call someone to see what you are doing, that requirement was eliminated in 2019, because no other player ever went over to check on someone lifting a ball for identification or to see if he was entitled to relief.  In soft conditions, calling an official over every time you suspect it is embedded would be a waste of time.

Also, if it was obvious that there was no way a ball could be embedded, under Rule 16.4 the player would get a penalty stroke for lifting it without a reason to do so.  Patrick was given a reason to do so.
He set the ball down in the grass to the side because if he didn't, a bunch of people who don't like him would have claimed that he cleaned it while he was holding it if it was determined not to be embedded.  Good practice.

John,
I agree it would be good practice to set the ball down so no one would think you cleaned it but what about the fact that he was holding it in the palm of his hand and not in his fingers? Chamblee seemed to imply that in itself was a penalty.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not a fan of Reed's but I wonder if folks don't go out of their way to find fault because of his abrasive personality.

Tommy,

I find guys like Brooks Koepka even more off putting than Pat, but i'm not aware of any situations where he's tried to pull this bush league stuff.  His game is no doubt top notch, its when he opens his mouth that he needs to STFU more often that not!

P.S.  By the same token, a guy like Jordan Spieth seems to be generally well liked by players and fans, but I was just as critical when he pulled that stunt in the British Open a few years back.  And perhaps it is karma from the golf gods that has caught up with him since then..

[John_Cullum]

P.S.  I can't confirm if true on video but Brandel said he was also "palming the ball" after he picked it up, which if true would certainly act to have a cleaning affect on it...

That's bullshit. You can't say with certainty that the act of holding a ball cleans it ipso facto.


And Chamblee is bordering on getting sued for defamation

[Kalen Braley]

P.S.  I can't confirm if true on video but Brandel said he was also "palming the ball" after he picked it up, which if true would certainly act to have a cleaning affect on it...

That's bullshit. You can't say with certainty that the act of holding a ball cleans it ipso facto.

And Chamblee is bordering on getting sued for defamation

John,

Its not bullshit, its science.  Its a simple question of how much surface area of the ball is being touched and potentially cleaned by holding it with two fingers vs putting it in the palm of your hand, where you are touching most of the ball.

A defamation lawsuit, that could be interesting thou....

[John_Cullum]

P.S.  I can't confirm if true on video but Brandel said he was also "palming the ball" after he picked it up, which if true would certainly act to have a cleaning affect on it...

That's bullshit. You can't say with certainty that the act of holding a ball cleans it ipso facto.

And Chamblee is bordering on getting sued for defamation

John,

Its not bullshit, its science.  Its a simple question of how much surface area of the ball is being touched and potentially cleaned by holding it with two fingers vs putting it in the palm of your hand, where you are touching most of the ball.

Taking that to its logical conclusion, the mere act of holding the ball cleans it at the two pressure points where the fingers touch the ball.

[Kalen Braley]

P.S.  I can't confirm if true on video but Brandel said he was also "palming the ball" after he picked it up, which if true would certainly act to have a cleaning affect on it...

That's bullshit. You can't say with certainty that the act of holding a ball cleans it ipso facto.

And Chamblee is bordering on getting sued for defamation

John,

Its not bullshit, its science.  Its a simple question of how much surface area of the ball is being touched and potentially cleaned by holding it with two fingers vs putting it in the palm of your hand, where you are touching most of the ball.

Taking that to its logical conclusion, the mere act of holding the ball cleans it at the two pressure points where the fingers touch the ball.

Agreed John,

But outside of mandating a special tool to pick up balls in these situations, its far less impactful to do it that way vs picking it up and holding it in your palm.  Touching a very small % of the surface area, vs most of it....

[Lou_Duran]

Thanks John.


Though you are 100% right, you will not win this one.  If you cite the rule, the response is that the rule is just plain wrong.


Based on my experience as a voluntary official for local and regional qualifiers, if every time a rules question came up an official had to come over to settle the matter, an already near-glacial game would be intolerable.  It is not uncommon to get called over to clarify the simplest rules, e.g. how to drop from a penalty area.  Especially with high level juniors, I always ask them what do they think they are allowed to do and what do they want to do.


We should expect golfers to know the rules, but beyond those they experience commonly, they really don't (an argument I made to your former colleagues in suggesting that the tuition for this year's remote rules schools was extreme and that they might consider teaching the rules as a loss-leader to encourage education- no response).  More than a few players don't even bother to read the hard card.


So, what to do that will satisfy the haters.  Hire 35+ full-time officials to have one with each group, arm them with audio/visual equipment connected to an expanded control room, and give each a whistle and a flag to halt and review play, and assess penalties as needed.  Suspected offenders should be accompanied by large, imposing men, preferably former lawyers with trial experience who frequently ace the rules test. 


Oh, while we're in the realm of the absurd, why not subject Sir Nick and Brandel (who hasn't changed much since high school when he played occasionally in our weekend game) to the rigors of Tour golf by having them play in the next to the last group Thursday and Friday, with a one-day cut if not within five shots of the worst score.  I've been around both.  You couldn't pay me to follow them.  The result of filling air time can be nauseating.  Hard to overcome human nature and the innate desire to be part of the story (the impression I generally got watching Stevie Williams).

[Thomas Dai]

Cut more area at fairway height.
Slight of hand tricks are gonna be much harder to achieve when a ball is sitting on short grass than when a ball is sitting in manicured 2”, 3”, 4” etc etc rough.
And let’s return to the situation where you need a playing partner/marker/referee to be a witness if a player wishes to touch a ball that may be considered to be in play with his hand.
Atb

[Peter Sayegh]

I'm certainly not a rules official but my first reactions were:
-there is no way a ball embeds after a hop in the rough
-why put your hands on the ball without "official" corroboration?

-wonder how many "embedded" lies I've played out of recently.

bottom line, a bad look for golf and its rules, whether it be the casual, amateur, or professional level.

[Mike_Trenham]

Seems like an area where golf is not embracing technology.  In today’s day and age, if you need a ruling you should just turn on your cellphone and start a zoom call with the official. 


I would estimate 3/4 of the situations could be solved remotely.  Lots of times they are asking just to be safe.

[Tim Leahy]

Faldo is always anti American players. If Rahm or some other European player had done the same thing he would have praised them.

Typical Sir Dick, they begin today's broadcast with McElroy doing the same damn thing on 18 yesterday and he doesn't say a word about the Euro and continues his attack on Reed.

[SL_Solow]

Lou and I are starting to agree on more things.  I suspect it will cause both of us to want to reconsider.  But he has it right here.  Much of what people are raising here really are criticisms of the rules and, in particular recent changes.  While I can't say that I am in total accord with the modifications, they came after years of study by those who were expert in the rules and who had real experience in applying them.  As for the suggestion that officials use technology to communicate, even in our Chicago District tournaments we communicate among officials via radio or, more recently, by cell or text to make sure we get it right.  Finally, as for Reed, his reputation precedes him.  But in this case he complied with the rules, at least procedurally.  Since no one other than Reed actually saw the lie, we will never know whether the ball was embedded.  Unfortunately, that is part of the cost of playing a game over a large acreage where players are expected to adhere to the rules.  It tends to work pretty well.  I note that in other games where officials are ubiquitous, players try to "bend" the rules and the officials are tasked with 'catching" them.  I officiated basketball and I understand that gestalt.  I prefer the golf approach and we will just have to figure out a way to deal with the occasional outlier.

[David_Elvins]

For those who question if you can lift a ball to see if it is embedded, please see Rule 16.4 which was put into the Rules in 2019 to replace Decision 20-1/0.7 in the old Rules.
As for those who think you should always have to call someone to see what you are doing, that requirement was eliminated in 2019, because no other player ever went over to check on someone lifting a ball for identification or to see if he was entitled to relief.  In soft conditions, calling an official over every time you suspect it is embedded would be a waste of time.

Also, if it was obvious that there was no way a ball could be embedded, under Rule 16.4 the player would get a penalty stroke for lifting it without a reason to do so.  Patrick was given a reason to do so.
He set the ball down in the grass to the side because if he didn't, a bunch of people who don't like him would have claimed that he cleaned it while he was holding it if it was determined not to be embedded.  Good practice.

John,


I think most people understand that Reed followed the rules.  The point that has been summarised several times on here is that the new rules are an invitation to cheat and Reed probably used them to cheat. 


He got relief from an embedded ball when it was very likely his ball was not embedded.

[Bill Seitz]

What's different today?  More players and more holes are on TV, so incidents are more likely to be caught on camera, but there is still a disincentive for fellow players to object publicly, or for the Tour to do so.

If anything there's less incentive today.  Back in the early '80s, cheaters were taking legit money from the rest of the field.  Today, there's so much going around on Tour that, while wins still matter, the difference between finishing 8th and 10th probably doesn't matter to most players. In 1983, Hal Sutton led the money list with about $426k.  In today's dollars, that was just over $1MM.  In all, 2 players in 1983 made what would translate to over a million dollars in 2020.  In 2019 (last non-covid season), over 100 players made that much and that's not even considering endorsements.  Why rock the boat?

[Pat Burke]

Did anyone actually associated with the incident see the ball bounce?


It seems Reed was proceeding based on no one seeing the ball take its bounce


I understand Reed  has  Brought on the scrutiny himself
Good thing there are so many who do not invite the same scrutiny in their lives

[Grant Saunders]

To those absolutely certain that the ball could not have embedded after bouncing, you may be surprised at the huge variation in soil conditions throughout a golf course property.


Playing a course and experiencing your what your own ball encounters doesnt even come close to revealing what the course is like. Try talking to the guy or girl on the rough mower who might regularly cut every inch of the place and then finds themselves shouting the team beers for having to have the mower pulled out after getting stuck in a place they have cut 100 times!

[Rob Marshall]

Faldo is always anti American players. If Rahm or some other European player had done the same thing he would have praised them.

Typical Sir Dick, they begin today's broadcas with McElroy doing the same damn thing on 18 yesterday and he doesn't say a word about the Euro and continues his attack on Reed.

One's reputation is rock solid and the other is, let's just say not. This isn't a Euro USA debate.

[JohnVDB]

For those who question if you can lift a ball to see if it is embedded, please see Rule 16.4 which was put into the Rules in 2019 to replace Decision 20-1/0.7 in the old Rules.
As for those who think you should always have to call someone to see what you are doing, that requirement was eliminated in 2019, because no other player ever went over to check on someone lifting a ball for identification or to see if he was entitled to relief.  In soft conditions, calling an official over every time you suspect it is embedded would be a waste of time.

Also, if it was obvious that there was no way a ball could be embedded, under Rule 16.4 the player would get a penalty stroke for lifting it without a reason to do so.  Patrick was given a reason to do so.
He set the ball down in the grass to the side because if he didn't, a bunch of people who don't like him would have claimed that he cleaned it while he was holding it if it was determined not to be embedded.  Good practice.

John,


I think most people understand that Reed followed the rules.  The point that has been summarised several times on here is that the new rules are an invitation to cheat and Reed probably used them to cheat. 


He got relief from an embedded ball when it was very likely his ball was not embedded.

David, you start by saying he followed the rules and then say he got relief that wasn’t deserved.  Either he did or he didn’t.  The fact the a tour official said it was embedded should end that argument.


Also, for those saying he cleaned the ball, it doesn’t matter since he was entitled to relief and could even have dropped a brand new ball if he wanted to.

[David_Elvins]

David, you start by saying he followed the rules and then say he got relief that wasn’t deserved.  Either he did or he didn’t.  The fact the a tour official said it was embedded should end that argument.

Sorry, I should have said, "followed an acceptable procedure under the rules."  The most likely scenario imo is that he embedded the ball himself and the rules are set up to let players do this because of the ability to pick one's ball up without oversight.

[Tim Leahy]

Faldo is always anti American players. If Rahm or some other European player had done the same thing he would have praised them.

Typical Sir Dick, they begin today's broadcas with McElroy doing the same damn thing on 18 yesterday and he doesn't say a word about the Euro and continues his attack on Reed.

One's reputation is rock solid and the other is, let's just say not. This isn't a Euro USA debate.

Sir Dick's reputation is far from rock solid. Ask his 3 ex wives and former girlfriend who beat up his high end Porsche with a golf club.

[Rob Marshall]

Faldo is always anti American players. If Rahm or some other European player had done the same thing he would have praised them.

Typical Sir Dick, they begin today's broadcas with McElroy doing the same damn thing on 18 yesterday and he doesn't say a word about the Euro and continues his attack on Reed.

One's reputation is rock solid and the other is, let's just say not. This isn't a Euro USA debate.

Sir Dick's reputation is far from rock solid. Ask his 3 ex wives and former girlfriend who beat up his high end Porsche with a golf club.

Really with that avatar you want to go there? Did you read Jeff Pearlman's article in USA Today this week?

[A.G._Crockett]

Not having seen this yesterday, I watched the beginning of today's telecast with great interest. 


Reed is being honest when he says that the volunteer told he the ball didn't bounce.  And I think it is quite possible that AFTER he proceeded under the Rules and moved the ball, it dawned on Reed that the extra scrutiny that he is under would come into play, and so it called an official over to confirm that what he had already done was correct.  Which the official did, though by the time he got there, Reed had not only moved the ball, but had also poked his finger in the ground where he had put a tee.

That said, Faldo, Baker-Finch, Nobilo, and Pepper were unanimous and had no doubt that Reed had behaved suspiciously.  All four basically said that the ethic on Tour is that you call somebody over to look at it BEFORE you touch the golf ball.  Could be an official, could be a fellow competitor, but somebody needs to look at that ball before you touch it.  Rules aside, that's the way the game is played.


I could actually feel sorry for Reed for getting roasted in a situation where he apparently followed at least the letter of the law, if not the spirit.  But Reed is well past that point as a person, and probably will never find his way back to where he gets ANY benefit of the doubt.  I don't think that's unfair; he's a serial offender, with character issues that go all the way back to at least his early college days at UGA.  No matter what happened yesterday, Reed has to live with that.

[Tim Leahy]

Faldo is always anti American players. If Rahm or some other European player had done the same thing he would have praised them.

Typical Sir Dick, they begin today's broadcas with McElroy doing the same damn thing on 18 yesterday and he doesn't say a word about the Euro and continues his attack on Reed.

One's reputation is rock solid and the other is, let's just say not. This isn't a Euro USA debate.

Sir Dick's reputation is far from rock solid. Ask his 3 ex wives and former girlfriend who beat up his high end Porsche with a golf club.

Really with that avatar you want to go there? Did you read Jeff Pearlman's article in USA Today this week?

I have never called Kobe's reputation rock solid. Aren't you the clown who supports Trump? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.