News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Brian Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2021, 09:08:45 PM »
Mark,
Congratulations on finally getting approval. My family has a house on the Tiana peninsula and I am excited to hear the project is going to happen.  Will the community still see any of the benefits that were initially proposed?  Will DLC be purchasing the 33 acres at the head of Weesuck creek?  Good luck with everything and I can't wait to see the progress.

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2021, 11:40:17 PM »
I know this is GCA.com, and we are supposed to fall in line and celebrate every new golf course, but I am in a reflective mood this morning, so here goes.


I first went to Southampton in the summer of 1988 in a "summer share" with friends. That continued on to where we as a family were fortunate to have a weekend house in Southampton with two boys growing up in the magical "Hamptons". As a Jersey Shore kid, it was magical because of the way the farms, open space, and yes golf courses blended in with the quaint villages of The South Fork. This continued on until 9/11, a death in my wife's family, and my son's Autism diagnosis changed that path to the current path where we traditionally spend our holiday time in Maine, where the farms, open space, and yes golf courses blend in with the quaint villages of Maine.


Due to travel restrictions, we just rented a house in Southampton over the 2020 holidays, and it was magical in a reflective way of a family reunion in the place that we consider the home of our then young family. It had been many years between the four of us walking the still lovely, and for some reason, not really developed Flying Point Beach:



Mark,

This is not an attack on you personally. We just sold off the last piece of a small family sub-division development in Connecticut, and I am sure the neighbors would have preferred we donate the land in some way as open space. We did not. We tried to maximize our profits, and after the lawyers got their claws in for 10 years... a discussion for another day.

Your golf course comes with 118 homes that will obviously have to be extremely large with big $$$ to make the numbers:

https://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/golf-course-pine-barrens-discovery-land-company-1.50127406

For me personally, I am saddened to see the Pine Barrens chipped away as that is the last buffer "The Hamptons" has from the suburban creep of Long Island. When do we as golfers need to stop?

Back to Maine for me:




I don’t take your comment personally mate. All cool.


This piece of land has specifically been recommended since the 1950’s for being a seasonal, golf course resort development. Multiple comprehensive plans, moratoriums, and alternative land use studies have repeatedly recommended this site for this use.


In addition Long Island Pine Barrens Act designated this area as a Compatible Growth Area, as opposed to a Core Preservation Area. Essentially, the deal was to allow development in this area in return for close to total prohibition on development in the core.


We bought the property under this agreement and the environmental groups who have decided to oppose the project wanted to move the goalposts.

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2021, 12:53:07 AM »
When we came before the Pine Barrens Commission, we had 33 individual compliance items that we needed to meet. We had one hearing that the public was physically present. After months of inaction, Zoom conferences happened that culminated in the most recent vote.


The Commission deliberately reviewed all 33 standards and criteria. Two were determined to be not applicable, but the rest of the items were passed 31-0. That set up an inevitable approval last week.


The thing that galls me is the non-scientific vilification of golf. Our sport is a convenient target. Opponents ignore science and facts and actually harm the issues that they claim to want to protect.


The case in point with this particular project. There are farm fields to the northwest of the project. They are protected forever and they produce an incredible amount of agricultural runoff which is extremely detrimental to Shinnecock Bay. The plume runs from the northwest to the southeast directly though our property. The harm to Shinnecock bay is guaranteed to last forever. But this project is the only hope for this not happening. I


So, we are lining up a string of wells to pump contaminated water out of the aquifer to irrigate the golf course, to clean the water up by phytoremediation, and help clean up Shinnecock Bay.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2021, 05:18:49 AM »
Mark,


Thanks for answering so thoughtfully, and I genuinely appreciate your time addressing it in that way. In your travels, I suggest you drive over to Scott Cameron Beach (Water Mill side of Mecox Bay) and compare it with Flying Point Beach (Southampton side of Mecox Bay), and compare the two. Flying Point houses have held "their vibe" despite 15+ years of development. Scott Cameron houses lost control of that area development, imo. I have no idea why from a permitting perspective since both are in "The Town" rather than "The Village".


Specific to Quoque, I don't really know it and I finally drove by Quoque Field Club last summer due in large part to Ben Litman's wonderful essay - https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/litman-benjamin-s-timeless-golf-at-quogue-field-club/

I know a number of Quoque Field Club members were original Members of Laurel Links, Kelly Moran's course on the North. Laurel Links does not get discussed here much, but that worked out pretty well for everyone, I think.


Best of luck in 2021.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2021, 08:15:03 AM »


The case in point with this particular project. There are farm fields to the northwest of the project. They are protected forever and they produce an incredible amount of agricultural runoff which is extremely detrimental to Shinnecock Bay. The plume runs from the northwest to the southeast directly though our property. The harm to Shinnecock bay is guaranteed to last forever. But this project is the only hope for this not happening. I


So, we are lining up a string of wells to pump contaminated water out of the aquifer to irrigate the golf course, to clean the water up by phytoremediation, and help clean up Shinnecock Bay.


That is great news Mark,
Congratulations t you and and all of us on the east end.Farming is the dirty little secret that gets a pass on the east end as far as environmental restrictions. Glad to see the two can peacefully co-exist and in this case your project attempt to address and improve the issue through science not emotion.(of which I'm sure there were many)
I spent an uncomfortable 10  minutes with Julie Penny in a Coat closet(the green room for their morning program presentations at Sag Harbor Elementary)......"so where do you work?"
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2021, 09:19:40 AM »
Congratulations to all involve and thanks for sharing the details of the approval process.


All of this is truly herculean effort, cost, and patience to just permit the golf course along with countless hours to come on design and build of the golf course. Eventually it will all be reduced to a consumer critiquing the golf course with comments such as they don't like a bunker on a hole or a green maybe too severe for them. If they only knew the efforts behind getting that bunker or green there.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2021, 10:54:56 AM »
Congratulations Mark!


If Slapper looked at this parcel I must have as well at some point.


Knowing personally the death by 1,000 cuts the New York SEQRA process inflicts and the nature of the expanding punch list of regulatory compliance items, its nice to see someone win one every once in a while.


To our west coast clan, NYS SEQRA is as painful as the California Coastal Commission process.....the idea of SEQRA is founded in science and public input on a project - the fatal flaw in SEQRA is the process can be made to be a Microsoft Excel Circular error process by opposition since there are no statutory timeframes built into the process - you need to keep answering questions until the agency who determined the would be the "lead agency" in the SEQRA process (planning, board, zoning board, Pine Barrens Commission, Town Council/Committee, etc.) has enough information to take the Draft EIS to  Final EIS and vote on it.....just painful and very expensive.


I read your mitigation measures - buying land to protect eelgrass, pump and treat for irrigation use, construction of a STP, septic system upgrades, etc......East Quogue got some pretty strong mitigation in return for approval.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2021, 01:00:48 PM »
http://www.golfcalifornia.com/departments/features/february-coastal.htm


Bill Gayne's comments got me to thinking about Dos Pueblos, a course near Santa Barbara by C & C that was never built.  I was given a copy of the investment proposal with the understanding that though it looked like a green light was forthcoming, it was not a done deal.  As the old link above notes, it died.  Over 10 years and $3 Million were reportedly spent by the developer for naught.


Before starting a thread "why is golf so expensive", or better yet, "why do we need another freaking course when there are already 35-40k in the world", think about these threads.  Thank God that such an outstanding real estate company as DLC has the commitment, patience and deep pockets to overcome the many unnecessary obstacles to turn unused, often environmentally impaired, privately-owned land into places of shelter, commerce, and enjoyment.


Someone sent me a link that Frisco, Texas, my current hometown and the site of the new PGA complex, was named by some organization as one of the best places in the U.S. to buy a home.  As a long time real estate professional, I was typically amused when Californians and New Yorkers would describe Texas as the Wild West in terms of zoning and construction regulations.  That was certainly not my experience when interacting with various planning staff, permitting, city councils, the CoE, etc.


Only when I saw first hand the hoops that my colleagues and investors in those states had to jump through did I begin to appreciate the "growth may not be necessarily a bad thing" attitude I confronted regularly in Texas.  Watching Frisco's city leaders recognize that other people coming to the area, many from CA and NY, may want to share our attractive lifestyle has been somewhat reassuring.  Sure, traffic is getting worse, water resources and other growing pains have required more attention.  We have our share of NIMBYs- more so in Austin where DLC has a newish project- but thus far their concerns have been noted without allowing them to summarily crash development.   One of the main reasons that water resources are an issue here is the great difficulty in getting lakes and reservoirs approved and built to collect the vast amounts that flood into the rivers and the Gulf, but that's a subject for another discussion.   

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2021, 09:24:53 PM »
Mark, how far have you gotten in the planning? Do you have a preliminary routing of the course? I can't find much online.


The routing is complete. There were a lot of tweaks made over the last year to meet environmental requirements. It will have five par 3’s and five par 5’s. The holes to the north in particular will go through some really nice topography.

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2021, 09:37:45 PM »
Mark,
Congratulations on finally getting approval. My family has a house on the Tiana peninsula and I am excited to hear the project is going to happen.  Will the community still see any of the benefits that were initially proposed?  Will DLC be purchasing the 33 acres at the head of Weesuck creek?  Good luck with everything and I can't wait to see the progress.


Unfortunately, because of the narrow mindedness of not approving the original PDD, presently the Town gets none of the benefits. In fact, to insist on them in an as-of-right approval is illegal. The opponents to the project never thought that we would hang in there despite our multiple, public assurances that we were there to stay. We thought that the whole package we be wonderful for the community, but short-sightedness, and more than a pinch of arrogance, prevailed.


We already own the 33 acre plot on the headwaters of Weesuck Creek. We’ve yet to decide on what to do with that piece.

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2021, 09:50:51 PM »
Congratulations Mark!


If Slapper looked at this parcel I must have as well at some point.


Knowing personally the death by 1,000 cuts the New York SEQRA process inflicts and the nature of the expanding punch list of regulatory compliance items, its nice to see someone win one every once in a while.


To our west coast clan, NYS SEQRA is as painful as the California Coastal Commission process.....the idea of SEQRA is founded in science and public input on a project - the fatal flaw in SEQRA is the process can be made to be a Microsoft Excel Circular error process by opposition since there are no statutory timeframes built into the process - you need to keep answering questions until the agency who determined the would be the "lead agency" in the SEQRA process (planning, board, zoning board, Pine Barrens Commission, Town Council/Committee, etc.) has enough information to take the Draft EIS to  Final EIS and vote on it.....just painful and very expensive.


I read your mitigation measures - buying land to protect eelgrass, pump and treat for irrigation use, construction of a STP, septic system upgrades, etc......East Quogue got some pretty strong mitigation in return for approval.


Sadly Bruce, the benefits are not on the table presently as I’ve described above. It’s a real bloody shame. It will still be a nitrogen negative project because of us using the the contaminated plume for irrigation. But, it could have been so much better.


Golf is a convenient scapegoat for people who purport to want to protect the environment. It should be based on science and math; always.


Everyone, thank you for all of your congratulatory words.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2021, 06:51:51 AM »
Mark,


  You mentioned you've got a preliminary routing. Do you have a preliminary (or chosen) architect? Will it be DLC's favorite, Tom Fazio Sr. (built by son, Logan)? Is or will there be any competition for who gets the job? Any shot of Jackson/Kahn? Inquiring minds want to know :`)


Congrats again! It's a marvelous property and regardless of whose name goes on it, I'm sure a huge winner for you and DLC.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2021, 02:35:40 PM »
Mark,


  You mentioned you've got a preliminary routing. Do you have a preliminary (or chosen) architect? Will it be DLC's favorite, Tom Fazio Sr. (built by son, Logan)? Is or will there be any competition for who gets the job? Any shot of Jackson/Kahn? Inquiring minds want to know :`)


Congrats again! It's a marvelous property and regardless of whose name goes on it, I'm sure a huge winner for you and DLC.


Thanks Steve. You got the architect correct. Tom is a favorite of DLC.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2021, 02:41:30 PM »
Mark,


Can you speak to the DLC development near Austin?  Information on the website appears outdated.  Might the course open in 2022?  There doesn't appear to be much buzz locally.

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2021, 12:34:20 AM »
Mark,


Can you speak to the DLC development near Austin?  Information on the website appears outdated.  Might the course open in 2022?  There doesn't appear to be much buzz locally.


Nine holes finished. Range also. Should be ready for 2022.

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2021, 08:29:37 PM »
Congratulations Mark!    Hope it is a great project for you.   Cheers

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2021, 09:19:31 PM »
Congratulations Mark!    Hope it is a great project for you.   Cheers


Cheers Jim! Nice hearing from you.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New golf course in the Hamptons
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2021, 07:18:08 AM »
Hello, Mark.


Congratulations again. Please check your PMs here.


RM
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!