New golf course in the Hamptons

[Mark Hissey]

This past Wednesday, I received approval from the Central Pine Barrens Commission for the construction of a new golf course in East Quogue. This will be the last major approval for work to start. There are some final details to be worked out as well as lawsuits to be dismissed, but things are looking really good.


Hopefully, work starts this summer.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Congratulations Mark. Hit a homer.
Mike

[AChao]

Congratulations!

[Mike Sweeney]

I know this is GCA.com, and we are supposed to fall in line and celebrate every new golf course, but I am in a reflective mood this morning, so here goes.


I first went to Southampton in the summer of 1988 in a "summer share" with friends. That continued on to where we as a family were fortunate to have a weekend house in Southampton with two boys growing up in the magical "Hamptons". As a Jersey Shore kid, it was magical because of the way the farms, open space, and yes golf courses blended in with the quaint villages of The South Fork. This continued on until 9/11, a death in my wife's family, and my son's Autism diagnosis changed that path to the current path where we traditionally spend our holiday time in Maine, where the farms, open space, and yes golf courses blend in with the quaint villages of Maine.


Due to travel restrictions, we just rented a house in Southampton over the 2020 holidays, and it was magical in a reflective way of a family reunion in the place that we consider the home of our then young family. It had been many years between the four of us walking the still lovely, and for some reason, not really developed Flying Point Beach:



Mark,

This is not an attack on you personally. We just sold off the last piece of a small family sub-division development in Connecticut, and I am sure the neighbors would have preferred we donate the land in some way as open space. We did not. We tried to maximize our profits, and after the lawyers got their claws in for 10 years... a discussion for another day.

Your golf course comes with 118 homes that will obviously have to be extremely large with big $$$ to make the numbers:

https://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/golf-course-pine-barrens-discovery-land-company-1.50127406

For me personally, I am saddened to see the Pine Barrens chipped away as that is the last buffer "The Hamptons" has from the suburban creep of Long Island. When do we as golfers need to stop?

Back to Maine for me:

[Tim Martin]

Mark-Best of luck with the course. Anything new on Long Island is exciting.

[corey miller]

I hope the Hamptons can still be saved....Heaven knows how the course of history may be negatively impacted if the important people in the Hamptons are not buffered from the typical Long Island heathen jerks.   

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:


How many years have you been working on that, full time, to get to this point?


It would be instructive for many here to understand.

[Rob Marshall]

Mike,
I feel the same way about the old Belleview Biltmore golf course in Clearwater/Belleair Florida. I played a lot of golf there with my father. Always brought back great memories when I played it.  A wealthy Family bought it and converted a profitable municipal owned course into a play ground for their wealthy friends. Unfortunately we can't stop change....

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mark, how far have you gotten in the planning? Do you have a preliminary routing of the course? I can't find much online.

[SB]

Mark:


How many years have you been working on that, full time, to get to this point?


It would be instructive for many here to understand.

Pretty sure I looked at this deal in the 90's.  It was owned or controlled by a guy named Bill Swann at the time.  He knew the permitting would take a long time so there was nothing for us to do.

[Lou_Duran]

For me personally, I am saddened to see the Pine Barrens chipped away as that is the last buffer "The Hamptons" has from the suburban creep of Long Island. When do we as golfers need to stop?

Back to Maine for me:

Coin flip: the Hamptons, Maine, FL, maybe CA?  My what difficult choices!


I have been a big Mike Sweeney fan.  Now I just want to be him.


When will golfers need to stop?  Perhaps when we all have our little piece of heaven within relatively easy access from our own backyard?  Though, I can sympathize with those who already have theirs.  Getting from Manhattan to the Hamptons can be grueling for the common folk; not bad when buying a volume package and share rides on a chopper. 

[Matt_Cohn]

A Discovery course in the Hamptons. Can't wait to see how much that costs to get in!

[Steve Lapper]

Mark:


How many years have you been working on that, full time, to get to this point?


It would be instructive for many here to understand.

Pretty sure I looked at this deal in the 90's.  It was owned or controlled by a guy named Bill Swann at the time.  He knew the permitting would take a long time so there was nothing for us to do.

Congrats Mark!


I looked at this years back as well.


Great area, property and soils, but approvals were always going to be lengthy and a bitch. East Quogue is an interesting location. Due to traffic, won't see too many potential members coming from points east of Southampton, but everything west back to NYC should be a pot of gold.


Please tell us it won't be a Tom or Logan Fazio design! Maybe a Jackson/Kahn? Most importantly, when will the comfort stations be ready?

[Jeff Loh]

Comfort Stations??
That's "Dormie Speak"

[Jeff Schley]

I don't fault DLC at all from doing what they do, which they do phenomenally well IMO. It is the regulatory entities that are the public's safeguards against things taking place that perhaps shouldn't according to each locale. Obviously the Central Pine Barrens Commission signed off on it for their reasons and are entrusted to make those decisions. As Mark points out there are some additional steps and lawsuits to clear.


I know some see this as the rich getting richer, but from a golf enthusiasts POV a new private course (which should be great knowing DLC's track record) is better than no course at all.
Anxious to see the project details once known.  Best of luck.

[Mark Hissey]

Congratulations Mark. Hit a homer.
Mike

Thank you Mike. Trust me, I can’t help sticking my nose into things and I’ll make sure that this place is special.

[Mark Hissey]

Mark:


How many years have you been working on that, full time, to get to this point?


It would be instructive for many here to understand.

Hi Tom. Glad you brought that up. It’s a part of our business that doesn’t get a lot of attention. I’m sure you clearly remember some of the struggles that we had getting Sebonack permitted. Well this one was ten times worse. It has been a crazy process. I’ll have to answer it in three parts.


Discovery Land purchased the land in 2012 and I’ve been working in the project full-time since August 2014. The process starts with a pre-application and public hearings to see if the process passes the smell test. To see if it can happen and to let you proceed. That involved two or three public hearings before coming up with a 4-1 approval to proceed. Then came scoping sessions with the Town of Southampton and the public. Those public hearings determined what needed to be analyzed in the SEQRA process. That was another two or three hearings.


We then had to work on the full analysis of the project. Environmental, hydrology, botany, pollution, traffic, economic analysis, public benefits. This took a really long time; this is the biggest project to ever be proposed for the Hamptons. We solicited input from everybody we could and gave numerous public information presentations to the public. Finally, we had the Draft Environmental Impact Statement and that required five public hearings to review over a five month period. There was overwhelming support for the project from the public, and a well organized, rabid opposition. Every comment from the public was noted and needed to be answered and the added to the EIS for it to become the Final Environmental Impact Statement.


The vehicle for approval at that time was the Planned Development District law. This involved us providing a list of public benefits that we would provide in return for the zoning. These included: building a Sewage Treatment Plant for the local school; providing a $1MM fund for high-tech septic system subsidies for the public; restoration of eelgrass and shellfish beds in Shinnecock Bay; retiring thirty Pine Barrens Credits; a $500K donation to the local school; building a public parking lot for the hamlet; establishing a $250K scholarship fund for the local kids; purchasing, preserving and donating 33 acres of environmentally land sensitive land in the headwaters of Weesuck Creek. There were other benefits too, that skip my mind right now. Basically it was millions of dollars in benefits. But also in the middle of this, the Town Board decided that they wanted to eliminate the PDD law leaving us in the middle of a process that was deemed unacceptable to the board.


But back to the process. With the FEIS completed, the Town had to vote on whether to accept this document as being the record on which to base their decision. The Town Board accepted this by a 5-0 vote. They then had to draw up a Findings Statement based on this record, but at this point, two board members stated that they would not be voting to approve the FS, but nevertheless it was approved 3-2 and the board needed to make their votes based on this findings statement being a fact. It was overwhelming positive. However, these same two board members voted against approval and given that a supermajority of 4-1 was needed, the three votes to approve were not enough.


This was December 2017 and it was time to go to Plan B...

[Peter Gannon]

Congratulations Mark.  As a Manhattan and East Hampton resident, and golf nut, I've been following this story for a few years now.  I am confident the course will be spectacular.  It seems ideal land for golf with the sand and pines, and ideal for an incredible setting. 


I'm just a golfer, not in the golf business, but I was hoping it could be more of a destination type place, Keiser property, Pinehurst, premium, but partially accessible.   Thought I read that was the original idea?

Also, speaking above my height here, but there are a plethora of publics in Suffolk Co., on coastal land, that could use some refreshing.  Also, there is a ton of sandy land surrounded by pines and forests around the Calverton area, near the former Grumman airfield.  Maybe someday restoration of Timber Point for the rest of us, if anyone wants to take that on!  With the Lido, WI news, be pretty cool if Timber Point came back...at Timber Point.

[Tom_Doak]

CMaybe someday restoration of Timber Point for the rest of us, if anyone wants to take that on!  With the Lido, WI news, be pretty cool if Timber Point came back...at Timber Point.

I have already volunteered to restore Timber Point, for free, if they would do it.


I have no reason to believe they will ever do it.  For one, the town apparently prefers 27 holes of lower-cost golf to 18 holes of higher green fees.  For another, one of the old fairways is probably going to be deemed a wetland now, so the routing is compromised.  You could put back a lot of pieces, but I don't think the original course will be restored.

[Peter Gannon]

That's like Thomas Keller offering to cater your wedding for free, and someone saying no.  Thank you for offering your time for that!!!  Maybe I'll run for Park's Commissioner out here.


Keep fees the same for county residents and jack the price for the visitors to offset the difference.  Expand a large putting green, reduce the driving range, 3 hole short course.  I think there would be enough room in the 177 acres.  Bet East Quogue will have a lot of that.  We can dream.  Or request kindly of the parks' dept.

[Tom_Doak]

That's like Thomas Keller offering to cater your wedding for free, and someone saying no.  Thank you for offering your time for that!!!

To clarify, I'm offering my time for free, as I am doing for Dornick Hills.  Fortunately, I think that's the only other course where I have made that offer publicly.

[Mark Hissey]

After the supermajority didn’t happen, the environmental groups and other opponents thought they had killed the project off for good. I assured the public on multiple occasions in public hearings that we weren’t going to go away. I did all I could to comply with every regulation and to ensure that the project would be as environmentally friendly as possible. Unfortunately, the opposition had neglected to rely on science and had killed the initial plan.


After some research, I realized that I could reapply with pretty much the same project but under the Planned Residential District rules and that the golf course would be a recreational amenity. So reapplied, this time to the Southampton Town Planning Board. More public hearings followed. The PB did not want to make a decision on the recreational amenity theory, so they passed that decision off to the Chief Building Inspector. However, he had been a vocal supporter of the project and so was forced to recuse himself and pass the decision off once again to the Zoning Board of Appeals. More public hearings happened, but eventually made the decision that golf courses were k deed a recreational amenity and it passed with a 5-2 vote. I provided masses of evidence to support my argument, namely the fact that many homes in the Hamptons had golf holes on them, and also that many communities had tennis and swimming as recreational amenities. Golf was just another amenity and to treat it differently would be prejudicial.


So it was back to the Planning Board. They wanted an independent review of the same facts presented in the FEIS and hired engineers to conduct a six month review of what had already been thoroughly reviewed. The engineers came to the same conclusion as was arrived at by the previous engineers and deemed that we complied. There were more public hearings and then we received an approval from them, 4-3, for our Preliminary Plat.


But given that we were in the area that we were in, we had to get another approval from the Central Pine Barrens Commission. More to come...

[Mark Hissey]

Mark:


How many years have you been working on that, full time, to get to this point?


It would be instructive for many here to understand.

Pretty sure I looked at this deal in the 90's.  It was owned or controlled by a guy named Bill Swann at the time.  He knew the permitting would take a long time so there was nothing for us to do.

That’s correct. We bought four different tracts of land from that family and others to accumulate 609 acres.

[Tim_Weiman]

Mark,


Thanks for the report and best wishes for success. I admire your persistence.


My only very limited exposure to something similar was spending a day at Inch with the late Arthur Spring. At that point he was about 20 years into trying to get planning permission. Even having a brother who was Prime Minister didn’t really help.


So Inch remains a fantasy one can just dream about perhaps during a round at Dooks.

[Steve Lang]

   Mark,


... and I thought environmental permitting in SOCAL was bad... where I'd characterize it as a "blood sport" ... 


Your journey would be an interesting book, maybe entitle it Perseverance