Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Coore & Crenshaw

[Kevin Pallier]

From what you've seen: What are their Top3 original designs? (by rating) What are their Bottom3 original designs? (by rating)


Please explain why you came to same


Australia
Barnbougle [Lost Farm]
 
Canada
Cabot Cliffs
 
China
Shanqin Bay
 
Indonesia
Rimba Irian
 
USA
Austin
Bandon [Preserve]
Bandon [Sheep Ranch]
Bandon [Trails]
Barton Creek [Coore & Crenshaw]
Big Cedar [Ozarks National]
Chechessee Creek
Clear Creek Tahoe
Colorado
Dormie Club
East Hampton
Friar's Head
Hidden Creek
Kapalua [Plantation]
Links at Cuscowilla
Old Sandwich
Sand Hills
Sand Valley
Streamsong [ Red ]
Sugarloaf Mountain {NLE}
Talking Stick (O'odham)
Talking Stick [Piipaash]
Trinity Forest
University of Notre Dame [Warren]
We-Ko-Pa [Saguaro]

[Ally Mcintosh]

What about Medoc in Bordeaux?

[Kevin Pallier]

Ally


That's a solo Coore design I believe

[BCrosby]

Deleted.

[Kyle Henderson]

I’ve been fortunate to play 11 courses by this design team.

Sand Hills
I see no reason to argue with those who place Sand Hills at the top of their consistently high quality heap. The soils and contours of that property are probably as ideal as one could hope for when designing a golf course, and it seemed pretty clear that a great deal of time and care was allocated to finding and lightly shaping one the best possible collections of golf holes. The holes are each memorable and compelling. The turf conditions and design allow for aerial and running shots. The holes are varied in length and direction. Wind trajectories vary frequently. Nothing is lacking in terms of memorable/impactful green shaping, natural hazards and the all important balance between penal and helpful slopes throughout the playing corridors. Ballyneal is still my all-time favorite golf course (for many of the same reasons), but I can’t say it’s a better golf course than Sand Hills.


Friar’s Head
is generally considered their second best, and again I cant argue with this sentiment. The firm playing conditions, memorable green complexes, elegant transitions from potato fields to sand dunes, perfectly proportioned sweeping fairways all combine to achieve the ideal balance of properly challenging elite players without harshly over penalizing the duffers.


While Barnbougle Lost Farm and Bandon Trails both provide extensive highlight reels,


Clear Creek Tahoe
gets my nod for 3rd place. It has so many great holes: the par 3 second set into a slanting saddle near natural rock outcroppings, the downhill 3rd asking for a fading runner off a down hill lie for those able shape their tee shot into position A, the short 5th w a perfectly-positioned central fairway bunker that forces a choice between precision and aggression, the stellar par 5s at 6,13 and 18, and the home stretch use of a sandy creek bed for holes 14-17 culminating at the picture perfect pitch at 17.


The “bottom 3” are all terrific too:


We Ko Pa Saguaro - many excellent holes  here, but the bermuda negates the ground game, the desert is expectedly unforgiving of moderately wayward shots and a few holes (eg #3, are a bit too minimalistic on the less dramatic portions of the property for my taste


Talking Stick North - a few stellar holes and many very good offerings on a fairly nondescript patch of desert land. It would be tough to expect more from this site.




Bandon Preserve - as scenic as any course I've played and with tons of great holes, this is without a doubt the best par 3 course I’ve played, but for obvious reasons it lacks the shot variety of the others on this list.

[Tom_Doak]

Ally


That's a solo Coore design I believe

So were Lost Farm and Shanqin Bay, then.  Ben didn't want to commit to the overseas travel.

[Jeff_Brauer]

As one of few who have probably seen it, Shanquin Bay probably deserves its high international rankings.  That said, I felt there were some moderately disappointing holes inland, more like a Pebble Beach than a Cypress Point, where even the inland holes are pretty great.


On the US side, I haven't played many CC designs, and still haven't even gone across town to see Trinity Forest. That said, I doubt there is a better course than Sand Hills, no matter how many more they design.  No surprise that the site makes the course for a minimalist design team (whereas Faz seems at his best when working on a nothing site, to me, his Dallas National isn't as good as his entirely manufactured courses on lesser sites, like Vaquero over in Ft. Worth....not sure if my rankings are influenced by perceptions and stereotypes)


Have also seen ND and Austin.  Both as good as the site would allow, IMHO.  Had an interesting gca.com experience at ACC. The super was showing me around and made a point that there were no catch basins....right after we had been in a semi heated discussion here about the value of them.  He clearly was a lurker on this forum, LOL.

[Tom_Doak]

I have visited 21 of the 28 courses listed.


I think that Sand Hills and Friars Head are clearly #1 and #2 in their body of work, but there are several courses I'd say take a run at 3rd place:


Bandon Trails and Streamsong Red are the two I would probably have to choose between.  I like them both because they are a little edgier in their design, perhaps because the sites had so many interesting features.  You don't see a green like the 9th at Streamsong Red every day!


I would give an honorable mention to Bandon Preserve.  It's very hard to build a course with a lot of 90-140 yard holes and create so much variety.  Having the wind as a factor is what puts it over the top, because it makes you not want to just hit a stock 9-iron all the time, but they did a great job of building greens that suggest running approaches or fades or draws.




Don't have time to do my bottom 3 right now, but I will do it tonight or tomorrow when I have more time.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Ally


That's a solo Coore design I believe

So were Lost Farm and Shanqin Bay, then.  Ben didn't want to commit to the overseas travel.

Then would Austin GC be a Crenshaw design? Always thought that was the case.

[Matthew Petersen]

Talking Stick (O'odham) [formerly South] may be near the bottom of their work, just because it's so ... not them.


I enjoy the course quite a lot, it's better than many Arizona courses you'll play, for sure, but you can just feel that it's not their normal style.


The Pi'ipash (North) is the more famous course at Talking Stick, a real lay of the land design where you get the sense they didn't do much beyond dig bunkers and use the dirt to shape some green contours (I suspect they did a bit more than that but you could easily be convinced they didn't).


The O'odham feels like the compromise they had to make with a nervous client who wasn't sure that sort of course would work. It's semi tree-lined with several fake ponds and streams and the contour is almost all manufactured, especially at the greens which are small push-up greens that fall away around the sides and back. Because they get angles and good design, it's still a good golf course, but it's definitely missing the 'soul' of a C&C design and most would be forgiven for not even realizing as they drive in (the entrance road to TS is past several holes on the course) that they are looking at a C&C design.

[Carl Rogers]

Isn't their  work marked by a consistently high standard so there is no lower tier effort?


Have  played Dormie 5 or 6 rounds, BT twice and Streamsong Red once.  My only comment about them is that there is small amount of a similar bunker style to each course.


When I eventually take my golf trip to the Midwest, I want to play the Warren Course at ND.


How many $50 & under accessible courses have they done?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Having played ten of their courses from early Sand Hills to Streamsong (the latest design of theirs) I have a hard time coming up with a design I would not like. The biggest difference for me is the terrain on which they were built. I tend to like the terrain that has more elevation change. Chechessee and Streamsong have a difficult time competing with Sand Hills and Friar's Head. Kapalua, of course, has great elevation changes but I would not list it among my favorites. Hidden Creek does not have great elevation changes but they used what was there so well that you feel the course wasn't routed on flatish terrain.

[Jeff Schley]

Only have played 7 of those listed, hmm pretty low number.


1. Friars Head - in my top 10 all time
2. Austin GC - this is perpetually underrated IMO, a top 100 course and the vibe is my style for sure.
3. Lost Farm - This location is great and a nice mix of some glimpses of water, elevation changes, and quirk. I think the best view of any clubhouse I have been to or at least none better as well.

[Jimmy Muratt]

Top 3:

Sand Hills - The game changer.  One of the very best sites in the US and was given the attention it deserved.   While the overall site and scale is overwhelming, it's the subtle features of the course and ever-changing wind that make repeated play even more enjoyable.   

Friar's Head -  Genius routing in and out of the dunes, the course could have easily felt disjointed if the transitions between environments weren't on point, which they are.  Visually spectacular yet full of strategic interest.   One of my very favorite places to play golf.

Old Sandwich - It may have C&C's best set of greens and green surrounds.   Excellent routing and the firm conditions maximize the strategic interest that exists throughout.  I find it interesting that some seem underwhelmed after playing it.  I'm guessing that would change after multiple rounds as you come to appreciate the greens and subtle features.

[Kevin Pallier]

Ally


That's a solo Coore design I believe

So were Lost Farm and Shanqin Bay, then.  Ben didn't want to commit to the overseas travel.

Tom


I know its semantics but on their website and their list of Projects C&C list LF and SB as a joint project.
Whilst I understand Coore did those layouts it looks as though they are wanting to keep them in name at least as part of their joint profile.

[Paul Rudovsky]

I have been fortunate to have played 23 of the 28 listed  (missing Rimba Irian, Sheep Ranch, Big Cedar, Sugarloaf Mtn, and Trinity Forest) and also played the South at Talking Stick. 


Best:
1.  Sand Hills.  Jimmy said it best.."The Game Changer".  Most naturally existing course I have ever seen or played.  While some might say the site was so perfect it didn't take genius to create, I would say having the discipline to sort out the best combination of hole sites from the 140 or so on the famous 8 1/2" x 11" (and not "do" too much top each natural hole) had to take a different type but equally important form of genius and discipline.


2.  Shanqin Bay.  Fabulous hole variety and use of a piece of land that is both wonderful in terms of location and difficult in terms of some angles and slopes (especially around hole 15).  Note...this assessment is based on the original design which was severely impacted by the local gov't coming in and planting trees on the entire 17th fairway (perhaps the best of the holes). 


3.  Friar's Head.  Like Cypress in terms of the transitions from environment to environment...basically seamless. Brilliant and dramatic use of the land.  Wonderful green sites.


Bottom:
1.  Probably both at Talking Stick...but I played both of these in 1999, and knew little about golf architecture then (they we're also the first two C-C courses I ever played...next C-C played was B Trails in '05).   Did not strike me as anything really special and in terms of AZ courses do not think they hold a candle to We-Ko-Pa


2.  Warren.  Underwhelming except for a superb finish. 


3.  Kapalua.  While great width and use of land in terms of individual holes, the very long treks from green to tee make it virtually unwalkable which I think downgrades the routing (even though I realize that is mainly due to the site...I am rating the overall course, not just the "architecture" and IMO site selection is so important).  Also I played it in 2014 when it had gone some 6 years in receivership (having been owned by Lehmann Bros.) and was in somewhat "ratty" condition (but think would still put it here even if it had been in great condition).

[Andrew Harvie]

I've only played We-Ko-Pa, the North at Talking Stick, Streamsong's Red course, and Bandon Trails. I think the North is the "worst," but it's still pretty good. They're great architects for that. I still prefer Doak

[Tom_Doak]

Tom


I know its semantics but on their website and their list of Projects C&C list Lost Farm and Shanqin Bay as a joint project.
Whilst I understand Coore did those layouts it looks as though they are wanting to keep them in name at least as part of their joint profile.

They must have signed the contract as a company, where they might not have done the same for Medoc, I guess.  Still, I would be inclined to treat all three the same, whichever way you go . . . I don't really care who got paid how much of the fee.

[Brian Finn]

In judging the "best and worst" courses by Coore & Crenshaw (or by any architect), like most, I consider the final product, but I always try to assess (to the best of my limited ability) how difficult it was to arrive at that final product.  This obviously comes down to the quality of the land (and soil) to begin with, and then what was (or was not) done by the hand of man.  I realize this is far from a new concept on this site, but it is important to call out amid this discussion.  As has been discussed on other threads over time, Talking Stick North is an impressive feat, as the site was completely flat.  The use of strategically placed hazards, well-designed greens, and even select use of out of bounds makes for a really interesting golf course.  Doak 6 course on a Doak 1 piece of property.  The rest of the C&C portfolio is so strong, that TS North is almost certainly in the bottom quartile, but it remains a very good golf course.

I've only played a dozen of their courses, but here is my view on their best (that I have seen)...

Sand Hills - as close to flawless as I have personally seen.  Ideal land and soil, massaged in all the right ways.  Several of the best holes in their category (best short 4, short 5, long 5, etc) in the world.  I think about this course more than any other I have played (except maybe Prairie Dunes  ), and am constantly amazed at the incredible strength and variety of each hole, and the course in total. 

Bandon Trails - interesting land, wonderful rhythm and pacing from hole to hole, each of which tests different aspects of your game, including course management, decision making, and of course, execution.  Brilliant variety in all aspects, making the best of the difficult parts of the property (and how they fit into the chosen routing) to design good golf holes.  A handful of holes I don't love individually, but the course as a whole is fun and just challenging enough.

Dormie Club, Streamsong Red, & Sand Valley - these 3 are pretty tightly bunched in my mind.  I have quite a few more plays at Dormie vs. SS Red (only 4) and SV (only 2), so I definitely know the course better, and would give it a slight edge over the other two, recognizing the (in this case, positive) bias of familiarity.  The criticisms I have heard of Dormie over the years have never held much weight in swinging my opinion.  I simply love the course and believe it has a collection of extremely strong golf holes.  SS Red and SV are both big ballparks that move over the property in a sometimes unpredictable, but always exciting way.  I love them both, and hope to get back to each place soon.

I also absolutely love Chechessee Creek, but don't feel it is quite in the same level as those mentioned already.  Tier 2 of their portfolio is still pretty solid.  I'd put We Ko Pa Saguaro in a similar class. 

On the low end, Talking Stick South is the clearest member, in my view.  Several good holes, but suffers from proximity to casino and other buildings on the property.  There are plenty of spots where you can see the C&C skill at work, but it's probably the only course of theirs that i have played that I do not wish to play again. 

Any others in the bottom quartile (ND Warren, TS North) feel "wrong" to mention among the worst of anything, but due to land limitations and other factors, that's where they land in this conversation. 

I have to say - both Bandon Preserve and the Sandbox have some really well-designed and fun holes.  I can't compare them to the full, big courses, but I have gone around each several times, in some cases with just one club, and I love what they are.  Preserve's natural beauty and views make it an almost too good to be true place for the evening, barefoot, beer loop with your buddies. 

[Josh Tarble]

Chiming in for the first time in a while...been fortunate to play 9 of their designs but none that are safely considered their best (SH, FH). Of what I've seen, I'd rank them as such, with commentary on a few:


1a. Big Cedar - what they did here is nothing short of exemplary.  To make such a cohesive, playable, fun course on that site is amazing.  The views and variety here are second to none.
1b. Bandon Trails
2. Streamsong Red
3. We-Ko-Pa
4. Chechessee
5. Cuscowilla
7. Talking Stick - I like this design A LOT - the site could only be maximized so much though.  It would be a great course to play daily though
8.  Sand Valley - I'm not sure why but I really just don't care for SV.  I think it lacks some of the "wow" moments/holes that make Trails/Streamsong so special.  Perhaps it's that many holes feel similar to others they've done, or maybe I keep comparing it to Trails, which is a tough ask,but it just lacks "something" that I can't put my finger on, especially in comparison to the rest of their work.  I also think it says something about how great the rest of their portfolio is

[Tom_Doak]

I've only played We-Ko-Pa, the North at Talking Stick, Streamsong's Red course, and Bandon Trails. I think the North is the "worst," but it's still pretty good. They're great architects for that. I still prefer Doak

Keep avoiding all of their best courses, and my position will be secure! 

[Tom_Doak]

I promised I would try to tackle the "worst" courses on this list, but I'm pretty much on the same page as Brian Finn:  Talking Stick South was not really a great idea [and probably not their first choice], and The Warren Course is not all that dramatic, but after that you are picking at nits.


I'm surprised so many people have mentioned Talking Stick North negatively, as I consider that some of their best work.  It was a very dull site and some of the holes they built are downright exceptional while still remaining relatively low-key and minimalist.  Likewise, I really loved the nine holes at East Hampton that were built from a previous routing that had been approved . . . those are tremendous holes where they had no wiggle room to move things around.


Because of examples like those, I hold Bill and Ben to a higher standard than anyone else working now, and by that standard, there are a few of their courses where I didn't find anything I would not have expected.  Of course, nobody can meet that standard all the time; I could say the same thing about some of mine.  And our clients would prefer that I don't point those out!

[Mark Pritchett]

Top 3


Trinity Forest
Sand Hills
Cuscowilla


Least good, but still good. 


C3

[Andrew Harvie]

I've only played We-Ko-Pa, the North at Talking Stick, Streamsong's Red course, and Bandon Trails. I think the North is the "worst," but it's still pretty good. They're great architects for that. I still prefer Doak

Keep avoiding all of their best courses, and my position will be secure!

Ha, I'm only comparing it against some of your "lesser" works like CommonGround, Rawls, Apache Stronghold, etc. Wouldn't be fair to have Pacific or Cattle Company against Talking Stick!

[Tom_Doak]

I've only played We-Ko-Pa, the North at Talking Stick, Streamsong's Red course, and Bandon Trails. I think the North is the "worst," but it's still pretty good. They're great architects for that. I still prefer Doak

When I met Michael Pascucci he said he called me instead of Bill & Ben partly because he didn't like the front nine at Sand Hills.   
I thought that was bizarre, but I was not fool enough to argue with him about it!