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Ronald Montesano

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Uphill Redan/Uphill Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« on: January 02, 2021, 07:26:50 PM »
Concurrent thread got me thinking about the 16th at Country Club of Buffalo. It is a Donald Ross, Jr. hole, and plays decidedly uphill (about 30 feet.) It has the front-left to back-right green angle, and has a maw of a bunker space along the right-side angle. The only thing it is missing to be a Redan-style hole is a kick plate/slope on the left, Instead of that, there is a deep-left bunker that you DO NOT want to find.


My question is, do uphill Redans or uphill Reverse Redans exist? Where are they, and how good are they? I think that the one at Fox Chapel might be slightly (like an inch) uphill, and I believe that the one at North Berwick is also uphill.


Have at it!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 10:05:31 PM by Ronald Montesano »
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Drew Harvie

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2021, 07:41:09 PM »
Ian Andrew built a reverse redan at Frog's Breath in Northern Ontario cut into the rocky landscape. Too bad nobody will play it!


Fenway's par 3, 11th plays pretty uphill and sort of looks like a Redan, but I wouldn't classify it as one
« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 07:43:40 PM by Drew Harvie »
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2021, 08:23:50 PM »
Fenway 11-Uphill:Yes. The green is completely open to the direct line from the tee, so it doesn't qualify. Shift the tee forty yards to the right and botox the front right fairway...then we'll talk.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2021, 08:25:05 PM »
The 3rd at Piping Rock is certainly uphill [though not as much as the 16th at CC Buffalo], and certainly a Redan.
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Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2021, 10:06:51 PM »
Uphill--if my memory is correct, #9 at North Shore CC in Nassau Cty Long Island NY...I think it is uphill...but very slightly.  Tom Doak should know since he restored the course


Reverse--first to hit my mind is at Sleepy Hollow CC, Westchester Cty NY... the 7th hole. Reverse and very downhill


How about a Reverse and Uphill Redan?
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Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2021, 10:17:17 PM »
More Reverse:


--LACC North (CA) #11...outstanding to say the least


--Essex Fells CC (NJ) #3


--Cape Wickham (King Island, Tasmania, AUS) #7--shaped like a Reverse Redan but as I recall no bunkers
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2021, 10:18:02 PM »
Tom, Thank you.


Paul, Thank you. Reverse and uphill is what CCB's 16th is all about...except for the kick plate. The Fox Chapel 6th (https://www.foxchapelgolfclub.org/Guest-Golf/Course-Tour/6) plays slightly uphill. The 16th at CCB is much steeper, but no kick plate.
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Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2021, 10:24:19 PM »
One more ...#8 at The Creek, Long Island NY
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Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2021, 11:13:19 PM »


Paul, Thank you. Reverse and uphill is what CCB's 16th is all about...except for the kick plate. The Fox Chapel 6th (https://www.foxchapelgolfclub.org/Guest-Golf/Course-Tour/6) plays slightly uphill. The 16th at CCB is much steeper, but no kick plate.


Ron--

Your opening post to create this thread asked "do uphill Redans or[/size] Reverse Redans exist?" (emphasis added)...and you cite NB #15 as perhaps slightly uphill...it certainly is not reverse.[/color]

[/size]Agree w you regarding CCB 16 (which also is a Volcano IMO)...as Fox Chapel #6 being both[/color]
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Kevin Neary

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2021, 11:19:56 PM »
Quote from: Paul Rudovsky on January 02, 2021, 10:17:17 PM
More Reverse:


--LACC North (CA) #11...outstanding to say the least


--Essex Fells CC (NJ) #3


--Cape Wickham (King Island, Tasmania, AUS) #7--shaped like a Reverse Redan but as I recall no bunkers
Essex Fells #3 is a downhill, 130 yard hole. I think you’re thinking of #12, which while uphill, the tee would have to be 30-40 yards to the right to have to be a redan.
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Jim Sherma

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2021, 11:27:37 PM »
Does the post-renovation left tee of Philly Cricket’s 15th count as an uphill redan? Certainly asks you to play it like one.
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Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2021, 03:01:03 AM »

Essex Fells #3 is a downhill, 130 yard hole. I think you’re thinking of #12, which while uphill, the tee would have to be 30-40 yards to the right to have to be a redan.


Kevin--yes regarding Essex Fells; all three of these I mentioned as Reverse Redans, as the opening question on this thread asked if uphill Redans or Reverse Redans exist.
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Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2021, 03:16:09 AM »
Went back to check my notes and #7 at Cape Wickham is for sure slightly uphill and definitely Reverse.  Guarded on left and behind by large dune/mound, green slopes L-->R and there is a shop drop-off/run-off on left side of green.  But again...hole has zero bunkers, so whether this counts as one of the few uphill Reverse Redans depends on one's definition of "Redan".
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Kyle Harris

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2021, 05:14:45 AM »
The 6th at Robert White's Berkleigh in Kutztown, PA. Might be in my personal Top 10 Redan 6th holes I've played.
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2021, 07:19:00 AM »
Surely the concept of a Redan almost works better uphill rather than downhill (as long as the landing area and green falls away, hence likely blind): Means the angle of ball flight is coming in lower.
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Sean_A

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2021, 07:21:23 AM »
Quote from: Ally Mcintosh on January 03, 2021, 07:19:00 AM
Surely the concept of a Redan almost works better uphill rather than downhill (as long as the landing area and green falls away, hence likely blind): Means the angle of ball flight is coming in lower.

I never understood the idea of a downhill Redan 👀.

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Joe Bausch

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2021, 07:52:56 AM »
Quote from: Kyle Harris on January 03, 2021, 05:14:45 AM
The 6th at Robert White's Berkleigh in Kutztown, PA. Might be in my personal Top 10 Redan 6th holes I've played.


Good choice! 


Start here if you wish to see this hole:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Berkleigh_2020/pages/page_28.html?
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2021, 08:22:37 AM »
Yale, NGLA, and Sleepy Hollow are the three high-end, eastern Redans that I have seen, that play downhill. The Yale one is a poor estimation, as it has a bad kick plate. Sleepy is Reverse, and is quite interesting. At NGLA, during my one playing, I left my tee shot on the lip of the cup, the closest I've come to an ace. As a result, it is spectacular (especially because I used the kick plate.)

In the west. the Redan 17th at Pac Dunes is downhill, while the Redan 12th at Old MacDonald plays slightly uphill.

Paul, I did not think that anyone would separate the "uphill" in the initial post from either "Redan" or "Reverse Redan." I have amended my initial post with a repetition of the adjective.

Joe, I'll look at your photos now.
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Joe Bausch

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2021, 04:30:07 PM »
Plantation Lakes (Millsboro, DE) recently opened their back nine and it includes a reverse-Redan par 3 that I think plays modestly uphill (5-10 ft?).

Go here to begin the photos:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/PlantationLakes/pages/page_78.html?
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Jeff Evagues

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2021, 05:10:34 PM »
Quote from: Paul Rudovsky on January 02, 2021, 10:24:19 PM
One more ...#8 at The Creek, Long Island NY
This hole is slightly downhill if anything.
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Chris Mavros

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2021, 06:03:09 PM »
The Fourteenth at Glen Mills by Bobby Weed is an uphill Redan. 
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JESII

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Re: Uphill Redan/Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2021, 09:50:32 PM »
According to CB MacDonald himself...#3 at Merion is exactly that. Maybe the first one?


Interesting to consider.
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Uphill Redan/Uphill Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2021, 10:10:17 PM »
Jim, isn't the third at Merion pretty straight, regardless of what CBM wanted to think? Also, no kick plate, correct?


Camargo's 15th plays ever so slightly uphill, correct?
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Robert_Ball

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Re: Uphill Redan/Uphill Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2021, 10:31:32 PM »
CC of Charleston 11 is another ever-so-slightly-uphill, from the forward tees
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JESII

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Re: Uphill Redan/Uphill Reverse Redan Par Threes...Do they exist?
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2021, 07:27:53 AM »
Ron, assuming you mean straight as level, it's slightly uphill. Green sits at least at eye level.


There is not a kick plate in the sense that you can hit a ball that would miss the green and a landform will steer it towards the green.
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