The greatest pin positions in GOLF ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yesterday, at NGLA, due to the warm sunny conditions, the hole locations were rather challenging.

# 18 had the pin all the way in the back of the green, making it an absolutely frightening pin to approach and putt to.

The back of the green gets narrow, with precipitous fall off to both sides and the rear of the green.

One fellow putted from the front of the green and didn't hit his putt firm enough, the ball didn't make the subtle crest, got caught by the wind, rolled back off the green and down into a bowl.

Paul Turner, who was in the bowl, who foolishly violated both rules, # 1 and # 2 on his tee shot, saw this and putted from pin high left, up onto the green, past the pin, off the green and down into the right side bunker.

Mike Sweeney, foolishly tried to putt from 20 yards short and right of the green with his ball ending up off the right side of the green.  When he eventually reached the front of the green, he promptly putted off the back of the green into the back bunker.

Geoffrey Childs is still there and attempting to complete the hole as I type.  

This is a wonderful skyline green with subtle contours and slopes that feed into bowls and bunkers.

The fear of error on the approach, and its consequences cause great anxiety to those trying to finish with dignity.

The back pin position, has to be one of the greatest pin positions in all of golf.

What other holes have spectacular pin positions, and why ?

In the interest of brevity, I won't tell you about the other 17 holes at NGLA and their great pin locations.

[hp@hc]

Good post - It is nice to hear of someone else's lack of good fortune on the golf course.

Here are a few of my favorite pin locations;

Augusta National - Hole #9 front, hole #13 front right
CC of Fairfield - Hole #4 front right
Huntington Valley #18 anywhere on the right
Pine Valley #1 - back pin, #8 anywhere on the left green!!
Friars Head #14 in the back
Hidden Creek #11 in the front
St. Andrews #17 behind the Road hole bunker, #18

This is only the beginning, the list could go on and on!
 

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Before I even opened this thread I knew you were going to say that and believe it or not I agree with you totally!  

As KennyV used to say if anyone came real near that pin position with an approach shot of any length they'd have to be either totally crazy or have made a mistake!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

HP@HC,

What makes the pin locations you've chosen, great ?

[hp@hc]

Well, to generalize, I think a great pin is one where you start to think about your putt as you stand in the fairway scoping out the shot at hand.  To use Augusta National #9 as an example, when you stand in the fairway, you KNOW you cannot be short, as the ball will roll all the way down the hill.  At the same time, you don't want to put yourself on the back tier, because that will leave you an almost impossible putt.  The scare factor, as you stand in the fairway is what I think makes a great pin.  On hole #4 at CC of Fairfield, if the pin is saddled up next to the water, you are still tempted bacause it is only a wedge in your hand (if the weather is right), and the left is no bargain anyway.  the green looks so tiny, and I think it comes down to "gut check" time.

Isn't this what you were referring to at NGLA ?  I like pins that make you think where you WANT to miss it, and where you can clearly see "JAIL" but sometimes can't resist taking it on!

Does this clarify?

[hp@hc]

Pat - while we are on this issue, what defines a great pin for you - is it what I have suggested, or is it the severity of the putting surface in and around the pin location?  When I was at the Masters this year, I saw many great pin locations, including those on hole #7 on Sat & Sun.  Upon review, I loved them because of the complexity of the greensite, and again because I'm sure the players are standing in the fairway plotting their next few shots on that hole, much like a good chess player.   ;DTHAT'S what I like about good pins!

[Norbert P]

 Hole #7 at Pacific Dunes

http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/.docs/pg/PD_hole7.html

 (Sorry, tried to modify but link won't take directly to hole picture)  (?)

Back left
Back right
Middle Right
Front Right
Front Left

(Try to get a peek when you play the first hole- (I usually play the 7th fairway on 1))

[Mike_Sweeney]

Yesterday's 18th pin  @ NGLA from the 1st tee. I will post more later when the kids go to bed.



Not sure it is the greatest, but it is alot of fun on the rare occasion when the pin on on the back left of 9 the Biarritz at Yale. (just out of this picture).

[TEPaul]

I think the thing to do at NGLA for a real eye opener is put the pin in that mid-left bowl on #1 where I've only seen it one time and put the pin on #18 where it was yesterday. That's a super introduction to the course and a super exit adventure too! Basically if the greens are of a decent speed two putting to a pin within that little bowl from anywhere on the 1st green other than within that little bowl which is about 100 sf you're chances of two putting are not good at all. And with the pin where it was yesterday on #18 if you're within 30 ft of that 18th pin I consider that that's about as sensibly close as you want to get with an approach. Maybe about 50 ft from it is more sensible!

[GeoffreyC]

Thanks Pat

I just got home after trying to hole out at 18 in the dark.    It took 36 hours to finish that hole but I did.  Trying to hook a 6 iron approach (left to right for me) with the wind howling right to left off the water was a dumb thing but I just couldn't make myself play it out over the water. I also just got back feeling in my hands from the cold and wind.

That pin on #7 behind the road bunker was pretty good too as was the center pin on 15 just beyond the severe slope on the front of the green. Yes the wind can blow your putt right back at your feet if you leave it a bit short  

Hole locations on the front left plateau on #11 at NGLA are pretty tough too.

The right pin on #12 at Augusta could be the most famous of all.

As mentioned the way back right hole location on #14 at Friars Head is a great one.  Very little room up there and up three tiers.  That hole has another great one and thats front way left. The green is very shallow over there and there is a severe slope short down into that hollow yet just beyond is the bunker and dune.

There are a couple of great hole locations on #7 at Yale.  Front left requires you to leave it short, short right or just hole hight but not beyond.  Anywhere else on that large green is asking for bogey or worse. Center and about 2/3 back is just at the crest of a slope that will require a jewelers touch to two putt.

[Patrick_Mucci]

HP@HC,

Mike Sweeney's photo gives you an inkling of the difficulty of the approach.

For me, a great pin must create fear and indecision for the golfer, dramatic risk/reward and a recovery and putting challenge should their be an effort to play safe.

Mike Sweeney,

Great picture

Missing from your photo is the strong wind coming off the water, directly toward the photographer, making the approach to the green even more difficult.

Geoffrey,

I thought that your approach shot should have been the lowest club in your bag, attempting to land 10-20 yards short in a relatively wide, flat section of the fairway, allowing the ball to run to the front of the green.

On the other hand, I dearly love firing for that pin.
It is exciting, and your heart and mind are racing, as you plan, execute and watch the results of your shot.

Unfortunately for you, your approach was in the lumber yard.

[Brad Swanson]

One of my regular tracks has a similar narrowing back position, with hazard left right and behind (#10 at Green Valley Ranch GC in Denver).  Although not as perilous as 18 at NGLA I'm guessing , it often does require a mid iron approach into the wind, and I certainly have never hit enough club on purpose to get the ball all the way to the back of the hole, even when I'm approaching with a short iron.  The run-up shot is the only way to access the back, a if you have the ball on the ground and miss L or R, the rough will stop your ball before it goes AWOL.  Try to access the same pin in the air, and a 5 yard pull in either direction is in the hazard.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[GeoffreyC]

Pat

A smarter lefty then I (one Mr. Cirba) would have surely used his putter for that shot I attempted. Needless to say the conditions were challenging.  At the start of the day TEPaul mentioned that given the cold and very strong winds he didn't think anyone would break 80 today. Knowing that pin on 18 he should have said that he didn't think anyone would finish today.

By the way- you weren't there to see the next group with the Miller's and two friends form Yale try to finish. It was equally amusing as our group.  

[Doug Siebert]

#18 Harbour Town, back left.  If you play left to right you don't get it, since you'll never play at it.  But man it is just SO dangerously tempting if you are a right to left player.

#11 St. Andrews front between the traps.  Playing for it works best if you don't realize just how small of a landing area you have to stick it....and its pointless because the putt is really damn hard.

#6 Finkbine back left.  OK, my home course, but if you guys saw this pin position you'd be as mystified as I am how to get it anywhere with a decent chance at a one putt or even with a pretty certain two putt.


Worst pin position:  #9 Kingsbarns, dead center.  That green should be plowed under and rebuilt!

[Forrest Richardson]

Oakmont No. 9; front right behind bunker. Forces play either at pin to fall-off green (right) or entirely left of green for a chip at the pin. Anything long cannot be held backward to this position very easily at all.

[Gary_Smith]

That extreme front right position at ANGC's 16th used in one of the early rounds at the Masters every year can be interesting. Miss to the right and you've got a very nervy little shot, and miss left and you've got a long curling putt up the ledge.

[Jeff Fortson]

#3 NGLA   Back Right - One of the toughest approaches I have ever faced.  It could be blind depending on your tee shot.  The green is elevated above where you play your approach from.  If you barely miss to the right, you can go ahead and write X on your scorecard.  Those who have played it understand.

#6 Creek  Right (in the bowl) - Where you hit your tee shot will determine the approach to this hole location.  If you are right you off the tee you almost have to bring it in high over the front trap and right at it.  If you are down the left you can use the reverse redan/punchowl to funnel it to the pin.  

#11 Shinnecock  Front Left - Depending on the wind I have hit a low cut 4-iron bouncing just short of the green to a high 9-iron with spin.  It's just such a muscle shaking shot for me.

#17 TOC  Behind Road Bunker - I think this one has been discussed into the ground.

#18 TOC  Front Center - I love the decision with this one.  Run it up or fly it over the Valley of Sin?  Wonderfully simple and ultimately strategic.

#6 Winged Foot (West)  Back Right - A great test of your wedge game.  It separates those with one and without one.

I could think of a lot more.....



Jeff F.

[Matthew Delahunty]

I'm putting in a vote for the Masters final day pin position on 12 at Augusta. Same spot every year. It's been analysed by many over the years. Yet it still manages to claim some of the world's best golfers.

Also a vote for the left pin spot at #6 of Royal Melbourne West - one of the toughest pins in golf, even with the length of today's top golfers.

[Tom_Doak]

There are tons of these.  I've even managed to build a few good ones myself.

However, not to rain on your parade, but when this topic comes up I always recall having lunch with Herbert Warren Wind in NY just before I left on my tour of Scotland.  One of the most memorable things he said to me was that he thought the modern focus on pin positions was overrated.  To quote Mr. Wind, "A really great hole is still great when the hole is cut right in the middle of the green."

[rgkeller]

There are tons of these.  I've even managed to build a few good ones myself.

However, not to rain on your parade, but when this topic comes up I always recall having lunch with Herbert Warren Wind in NY just before I left on my tour of Scotland.  One of the most memorable things he said to me was that he thought the modern focus on pin positions was overrated.  To quote Mr. Wind, "A really great hole is still great when the hole is cut right in the middle of the green."

And a big "Amen" to Mr. Wind.

And a "great" hole position (what is a "pin position" anyway?) should not be defined by the number of three and four putts its location dictates.

[Patrick_Mucci]

rgkeller,

Would you say that the far right hole location on # 18 at GCGC dramatically increases the challenge of the hole versus the far left hole location ?

And that a great hole can be enhanced by the location of the hole ?

[rgkeller]

I think that the best hole location on the 18th at GCGC is way back middle where the back contours penalize shots hit off line and the back bunker comes into play for the bold.

I do not think that a severe right location is much more challenging that a severe left location. I know that the bunker I avoid at all costs is the left Travis bunker.

Hole positions that give enhanced challenges to the approach shot make a hole better. Hole positions that make two putting unlikely from any position serve only to degrade the hole and the course.

But any hole that does not offer significant choices and challenges with the easiest hole location on the green is not a "great" hole.

[archie_struthers]

 


Ok, we have to define greatest pin positions because the question of "fairness" comes into play, and do you care about it. For my response, I'll not worry about it one iota,

Playing the short par four fourth hole at Rolling Green, pin front in a USGA qualifier years ago, I had a ten footer for birdie, downhill. My fourth shot was a 90 yard replay of my 2nd shot to the green, and I hit what I thought was a good putt, I knew what was coming when I lined it up. Perhaps Mayday can talk about this pin!

Pine Valley, caddy tournament , same year as the infamous   Crump Cup which we dubbed Bator's Revenge ( Dick Bator, then PV superintendent had been very upset by the 64 shot the previous year by Bob Lewis in qualifying). Dick figured the loopers deserved the same treatment as the top flight Crump field.


   Every pin, was absolutely fiendish, e.g.  

First hole:   hanging off the green back right-----tees back!

Second: On the ledge far right, that right the ten foot ledge

Third:   easy one compared to the Crump--- front middle

Fourth:  Middle right on the hogback

Fifth:    Furthest right hand back corner

 this continued on every hole, greens at warp speed on the stimp.  I would argue, and it would be a good one, that the set-up was harder than the aforementioned Crump Qualifier that Jay Sigel led that same year. for anyone that played in or remembers stories about that set-up, it truly was an exercise in terror as 85 made the championship flight!

       Two pins I remember vividly from the Crump
       and have probably never been seen again

         #3    right front causing multiple four & five putts      
                    and one withdrawal
                   
         #15   Front middle .
                absolutely had to chip it from in front
                or get lucky to save par


       The caddy tournament, with the exception of number three, was set-up harder by Mr. Bator, causing some egos to
get back in line , mine included!

[mike_malone]

 Archie
    When #9 ANGC was mentioned,it reminded me of #8 and #15 at Rolling Green.These are devilish front placements that require you to go for it because being short or long is bad.#4 right and short is not as bad,sorry.#8 and #15 have ridges in the middle of the green like #9 ANGC;#4 has no ridge.
  Usually we save these placements for ourselves and do not inflict them on visitors.
 BTW,i need to get down to TD again ;enjoy it ;honestly feel like i am in Ireland when i get out in the middle of it.

[JSlonis]

One I played recently would be the back left hole location on #17 at Congressional CC Blue Course.  Tom Lehman would have payed alot of $$$$$ for my Better Ball partner's wonderful 6 iron to 5 feet/birdie.