[Jason Topp]

Public - Bandon does it as well as anyone. 

Private - I think reining in the assholes is the key.  The clubs with the best atmosphere have someone able to do that while constantly tending to the overall vibe of the place. 

Facilities are far less important than the people and the atmosphere. 

[Mark Pearce]

2 x 18-holes at Muirfield/HCEG with lunch between rounds sitting amongst the members at their 'long tables'.
atb

Very difficult to beat

[John Kavanaugh]

Public - Bandon does it as well as anyone. 

Private - I think reining in the assholes is the key.  The clubs with the best atmosphere have someone able to do that while constantly tending to the overall vibe of the place. 

Facilities are far less important than the people and the atmosphere. 

Jason,


What do you consider an asshole? I don’t recall ever meeting one at any club that I have visited or been a member. Must be like the old poker adage: If you don’t see a sucker at the table...

[Michael Wolf]

I wouldn't build anything but a maintenance building, green complexes and fairways for the first couple of years. This is your first attempt at designing a course. Why commit yourself financially or strategically to anything except the basics until you better understand what you and your customers want and how the routing, the property, and "the experience" fits those wants?


I'd even wait on most of the fairway bunkers and tee boxes. Give yourself and your superintendent some time to learn on the job - there will be plenty to keep you busy before worrying about cottages, soup of the day, or what name to call the Spring calcutta.


Michael

[Tim Martin]

I wouldn't build anything but a maintenance building, green complexes and fairways for the first couple of years. This is your first attempt at designing a course. Why commit yourself financially or strategically to anything except the basics until you better understand what you and your customers want and how the routing, the property, and "the experience" fits those wants?


I'd even wait on most of the fairway bunkers and tee boxes. Give yourself and your superintendent some time to learn on the job - there will be plenty to keep you busy before worrying about cottages, soup of the day, or what name to call the Spring calcutta.


Michael

Michael-It sounds good in theory but likely has no practical application. How many players would be okay plunking down a wad of cash or paying membership fees to play an unfinished golf course? I agree that the rest of the trappings(food, lodging, sheet thread count, signature drink) are an afterthought when compared to the main event which is the golf course.

[Michael Wolf]

For better or worse, I think Zac's marketing and merchandising for his golf course has guaranteed a rush of of early customers.


What I'm recommending is he NOT cater to this early crowd of hard core followers, but instead use the safety net that those customers provide to buy himself time to learn and implement a sustainable long term model.


I agree completely it would be unrealistic for 95% of developers. Zac is in a rare position.


Michael

[Tim Martin]

For better or worse, I think Zac's marketing and merchandising for his golf course has guaranteed a rush of of early customers.


What I'm recommending is he NOT cater to this early crowd of hard core followers, but instead use the safety net that those customers provide to buy himself time to learn and implement a sustainable long term model.


I agree completely it would be unrealistic for 95% of developers. Zac is in a rare position.


Michael

Michael-I don’t know anything about the financing but I have to assume there are some investors that will want to be made whole sooner rather than later. If that’s not the case then lucky Zac.

[Drew Maliniak]

Listening to the Matt Ginella podcast on starting up Bandon, one point struck me:

Mr. Keiser hired leaders who would be "all in." The first GM was the son of the head of Kemper. Keiser seemed to think that the big boss wouldn't let his son fail. Same with David McLay Kidd. Hiring them also saved Keiser a lot of money and brought energetic folks very hungry to prove themselves. So you got experience and drive.

https://www.bandondunesgolf.com/blog/fire-pit-matt-ginella

So a place like the Buck Club should use start-up principles like Bandon. (If I was Zac, I would read as much as possible about Minimum-Viable-Products. Likely that looks like Sweetens / Bandon).

Go minimalist with the food, clubhouse, and lodging (if any). People at Bethpage sleep in cars to play golf.

Bottom-line: Do invest in the best-possible golf (aim for Tara Iti) with the staff incredibly friendly and responsive. Then build out. Lot of good ideas in this thread, but I would focus on hiring on a great design team and GM. Rest should follow.

The finished-product doesn't need to be Bandon. But I would copy Keiser's philosophy.


And best golf experiences: The Honors, PV, Merion, Baltusrol, Whisper Rock. In some ways, very different. 

[AChao]

Zac ... I think the key is to match your target audience with the experience. 


If you wanted members from this board, I would focus on great architecture with more a purists view of a club.  Making it interesting on different days is probably of high importance.


My old club that was full of low handicaps and wannabe golf pros, you'd need greater difficulty on the course and the ability to play with other low handicap players and real golf pros.  Having a game really mattered to most.


If you are targeting the affluent, remember most of them aren't skilled at golf so you need easy holes and lush landscaping.  Lots of service.  Range balls of your brand, drinks delivered, etc.


I've always wanted to own and or build a golf course, and every real idea I've had I've been pretty sure it would be a financial failure (except for ones that everyone on this board would hate including myself).


Best of luck in finding something that you are happy with and is financially viable.  My sense is that the course needs to be architecturally interesting with a skew toward easy or scoreable may be part of the direction you are headed.  The course is central IMO.  The other stuff is complimentary/secondary.

[Bret Lawrence]

Some of my best golf experiences have involved tournaments.  I play at a municipal course, so it’s always nice to be able to venture out to a private course and be treated like a member for a day or a weekend.  Many of the private clubs in the Berkshires (Massachusetts) offer one or two-day invitational tournaments.  They aren’t all geared towards the best players, many are flighted by handicap.  It gives more people an experience they aren’t usually accustomed to and many of the same players come back year after year. 


I think having local matches between professionals would also be a cool experience.  Reading articles from back in the day, many courses would open with 2-4  professionals coming to town to showcase the new golf course.  I think many local golfers/members wonder how their course would hold up to the pros game and because of the Tour players busy schedules this doesn’t happen anymore, unless it’s going to be shown on television.


This second idea isn’t something I would recommend to every golf course, but with Zac’s standing I think he would be capable of making that happen at his club. Best of Luck with the Club.

[Jay Mickle]

A great walk that makes me want to head back to the first tee (Mid Pines/Lawsonia). A course that requires thought on each shot, greens that only give up their secrets over time, pace of play not to exceed 3:45, a good bar menu and a place to overlook the 18th green. As for personnel, the only thing better than golf at Bandon was the customer service.

[Ira Fishman]

A great walk that makes me want to head back to the first tee (Mid Pines/Lawsonia). A course that requires thought on each shot, greens that only give up their secrets over time, pace of play not to exceed 3:45, a good bar menu and a place to overlook the 18th green. As for personnel, the only thing better than golf at Bandon was the customer service.

Jay,


My answer back in Post 12 was MP/PN. And I agree about the customer service at Bandon. I also was pleasantly surprised about the ease of getting a reasonably priced bar menu at Bandon. But I find that a somewhat fine line. Streamsong and Pinehurst had extremely attentive customer service, but it felt too “corporate” and trying too hard to justify the cost. And the food at both was pretty mediocre despite the efforts to jazz up the menus.


Give me the patio overlooking the 18th at MP with the strong pours and solid burgers every day.


Ira

[Tom_Doak]

Streamsong and Pinehurst had extremely attentive customer service, but it felt too “corporate” and trying too hard to justify the cost.

Streamsong and Pinehurst are both owned by large corporations, so, that's exactly what you get.  Bandon is not.  Mid Pines is not.  Zac's course presumably won't be, either.

[Ira Fishman]

Streamsong and Pinehurst had extremely attentive customer service, but it felt too “corporate” and trying too hard to justify the cost.

Streamsong and Pinehurst are both owned by large corporations, so, that's exactly what you get.  Bandon is not.  Mid Pines is not.  Zac's course presumably won't be, either.

Yep.

[Kyle Casella]

In America, it doesn't get any better than Ohoopee. In Scotland, HCEG. The key factor for me is that everything at both places encourages cross-group interaction, which allows you to really feel like you are a part of the club as a guest for the short time you are there. Simple but excellent food, served family style. Ample and free flowing beverages. Match play. Excellent accommodations. Something different on the course in the morning and afternoon.

[Terry Lavin]

Listening to the Matt Ginella podcast on starting up Bandon, one point struck me:

Mr. Keiser hired leaders who would be "all in." The first GM was the son of the head of Kemper. Keiser seemed to think that the big boss wouldn't let his son fail. Same with David McLay Kidd. Hiring them also saved Keiser a lot of money and brought energetic folks very hungry to prove themselves. So you got experience and drive.

https://www.bandondunesgolf.com/blog/fire-pit-matt-ginella

So a place like the Buck Club should use start-up principles like Bandon. (If I was Zac, I would read as much as possible about Minimum-Viable-Products. Likely that looks like Sweetens / Bandon).

Go minimalist with the food, clubhouse, and lodging (if any). People at Bethpage sleep in cars to play golf.

Bottom-line: Do invest in the best-possible golf (aim for Tara Iti) with the staff incredibly friendly and responsive. Then build out. Lot of good ideas in this thread, but I would focus on hiring on a great design team and GM. Rest should follow.

The finished-product doesn't need to be Bandon. But I would copy Keiser's philosophy.


And best golf experiences: The Honors, PV, Merion, Baltusrol, Whisper Rock. In some ways, very different.

Agree 100%.

[Tim Martin]

Southern Pines in January or February. Play Mid Pines, Pine Needles, Southern Pines, Dormie Club and Tobacco Road. Lather, Rinse, Repeat at least once annually until the reaper comes to claim you. Eat dinner at the Beefmastor Inn in Wilson, NC either on the way in or the way out. All accessible with the exception of Dormie which is pretty friendly.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Good gosh, some of these lists…

My list is pretty simple, but probably tough to do:

• A good golf course that you want to play again, ideally with some smaller loops for extending or renewing bets or just to get in a few holes in an hour or 45 minutes or whatever.
• Good people, good staff. This may be the most important part.
• Simple amenities that meet basic needs and not much more.

The latter, KISS, and play to the audience. If it’s mostly members, a practice facility, a good bar and grill (maybe not even finer dining, keep things less formal), and a cottage or two for occasional guests, along with a simple locker room and pro shop. If it’s a destination place, more good lodging close, and less of the locker room/shower stuff. Less of the practice facility stuff (though a big putting green like Thistle Dhu or Streamsong by Black is a great way to have fun with a beverage or two and a friend or ten).

The most important is the people, the next is the golf course, and the amenities are third, but on that, I’m a fan of keeping it simple. Don’t over-spend on that stuff. Keep things authentic. People spend times in all sorts of crappy places if they enjoy the people they’re with, so you don’t have to make the “best” of everything if you have great people and a good or great course.

[John Kavanaugh]

Has anyone ever been to a private course without good people?

[Mike_Young]

Has anyone ever been to a private course without good people?

No...but I have been to a few where the members  carried great concern for reining in the assholes that might visit them...

[Bruce Katona]

After skimming through 4 pages of suggestions (all very good) my elevator speech take away from this is:

1. FBD Marty Bonnar hit point #1 - affordability
2. Honor fridges, candy, modest play, on-site stays with a good bar etc. all cost money and require some level of service that most would not want to pay for on an ongoing basis IMHO.


I recall having golf weekends in Las Vegas in shoulder season and vising LV with my wife, who enjoys gambling.  We would drive out to the Paiute Golf Resort 25 minutes from the Strip.  Being in the golf business at the time, I thought the course, clubhouse, experience and staff were about the best I'd ever experienced at any facility which catered to the general paying public, and the courses were playable for my wife, who on a good day may break 100.  Since I haven't played there in several years this may have changed.

[Cristian]

Would love to get some opinions on what are the key aspects to providing a great golf experience?
Obviously the golf itself has to be great ... but there are some many other things in play that can elevate your experience while visiting somewhere.

Other than course quality:



1. Hospitality
2. Pace of Play
3. Lunch
4. Tradition
5. Dormie house

[Jim Franklin]

As Tom said, Stonewall does it right. I am glad someone mentioned Ohoopee because that was my first thought as to how I would want a club run. And Jeff Warne does it right and knows from experience. If you follow their philosophy, you will have a hit.

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