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Zac Blair

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2020, 07:28:11 PM »
You know, I re-read this thread and every post, and had quite an unsettled reaction:
On the one hand, there's hardly an idea or suggestion that I don't agree with; I think I'd enjoy the ideal experience you all describe.
On the other hand, I'm taken aback and left numbly disoriented: I can't believe we've all come so far as to need and want *so very much* from a golf course, and from the experience of a game.
These clubs-courses we so want and so lovingly describe: have we reached the high point for the game of golf, or the low point? Are we seeing the flowering and crowning glory of the renaissance, or is it the beginning of the end?
[Rhetorical Questions, based on my unsettled disorientation; no answer required]
In any event, I do find myself now wanting more than ever to live in very close proximity to 'an average English golf course'. A Doak 4 or 5, where I could get a breakfast bap. I'll take a shower when I get home.




I would like to point out that I’m specifically talking about a special occasion club where you stay, eat, play, socialize. Not talking about your everyday local club

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2020, 07:31:00 PM »
Zac,
Lots of things covered and your summary articulates the vision nicely.


My adds:...


Golfers like playing games. Have them available if it fits the vibe of the club.


- darts
- pool
- ping pong
- foos ball
- bocci (Ballyneal!)


And...great candy in jars.


Jelly beans, ginger snaps, peanut MMS.


See you there...!... ;D
Cheers,
Ian

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2020, 08:48:46 PM »
You know, I re-read this thread and every post, and had quite an unsettled reaction:

In any event, I do find myself now wanting more than ever to live in very close proximity to 'an average English golf course'. A Doak 4 or 5, where I could get a breakfast bap. I'll take a shower when I get home.


I’ve seen the showers at a few UK clubs and agree, I’ll take a shower when I get back to the States.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2020, 09:53:17 PM »
When I think about what is likely the most successful Public US destination model, its gotta be Bandon:

- 5 Full courses, 2 short courses, putting course...
- Decent amount of on-site housing and dining
- At least 1 full bar
- Remote, isolated golf to be found on all of its courses.
- Plenty of available Caddies.
- Several top ranked courses.
- No real reason to leave the grounds, unless you really want some additional night life activities...

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2020, 10:13:32 PM »
When I think about what is likely the most successful Public US destination model, its gotta be Bandon:

- 5 Full courses, 2 short courses, putting course...
- Decent amount of on-site housing and dining
- At least 1 full bar
- Remote, isolated golf to be found on all of its courses.
- Plenty of available Caddies.
- Several top ranked courses.
- No real reason to leave the grounds, unless you really want some additional night life activities...


Multiple courses is the most overrated feature in destination golf, give me one course I want to play again and again and increase my chances for making birdies.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2020, 10:33:32 PM »
1. Good weather.


2. Course not over-crowded.


3. Highlight Nature.


4 . Pitch and putt course or putting green for after golf


5. No logistical issues. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2021, 05:58:47 PM »
I have been lucky to get to see it all, across many different cultures.

I got to many places through the back door / side door as a twenty-something student, and I learned a lot from that.  Most of the things clubs do to create a great "experience" for guests are entirely unnecessary.  Like, the lobster for lunch at The National is great [and I absolutely love lobster], but when I'd go there in the off-season and the professional and the caddiemaster were up for a pleasant chat and then went and watched me hit off #1, arguably that was a BETTER experience than all the hoopla.  Some places insist on putting on a show for you, others treat everyone like they belong there.


Some of the preceding comments require a whole lot of $taffing, and if you're not a golf factory with a lot of players every day, having staff to cater to everyone's whims is going to make the place unprofitable.  An operation like Stonewall where a few people do everything is hard to beat, but it also requires that members are comfortable enough to do some things for themselves instead of having someone at their beck and call.


Also, since no one has mentioned it yet, including Zac,  :(  the most important employee is the golf course superintendent.  Having a guy who grows good grass is one thing; having one who also loves the game and sets up the golf course appropriately is worth its weight in gold.

P.S.  Everyone talks about avoiding slow play, but it's hard to do.  If someone had the stones to be a two-ball club like Brancaster or Rye, I would join in a heartbeat.


+1. Finding the correct superintendent will give you the product as well as save money!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2021, 06:10:47 PM »
When I think about what is likely the most successful Public US destination model, its gotta be Bandon:

- 5 Full courses, 2 short courses, putting course...
- Decent amount of on-site housing and dining
- At least 1 full bar
- Remote, isolated golf to be found on all of its courses.
- Plenty of available Caddies.
- Several top ranked courses.
- No real reason to leave the grounds, unless you really want some additional night life activities...


Multiple courses is the most overrated feature in destination golf, give me one course I want to play again and again and increase my chances for making birdies.


I think I agree with this a private course/destination such as Zac describes.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2021, 06:18:27 PM »

Outside of great staff, the course needs to be fun.  I am sure more people would like to play another 18 after playing a fun course, compared to playing a course that just beat you up.

..people that are members of clubs that require caddies, might not want a caddie - should not be mandatory. 

Lodging should have options, you can stay in a dorm room upstairs for cheap or rent out 8 bedroom cottage for $$$$$ - similar to PV and Laurel Valley.

Members and Guest will want to come back if they feel like they are getting a good deal, no one wants sticker shock after a fun long weekend.


I took the liberty of editing your excellent list.
Sometimes a dorm no frills, cameradic experience is the absolute best-Others might prefer a different option. A choice is nice-at least at some phase of the project.


« Last Edit: January 01, 2021, 06:22:27 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2021, 11:24:11 PM »
A place I enjoy going to is Chechessee.


I don't know how to quantify it, but they have done a nice job combining nice with comfortable.


Things are pretty well done there, but it never feels stuffy.

Michael Pelliccione

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2021, 05:37:43 AM »
Great question Zac and a very important one…   A lot of good stuff already from the folks here.   
 
I’m sure a lot of people on this forum are members at private clubs that follow traditional club rules and practices.   While that is fine and what not its nice to escape that and experience something TOTALLY different.
 
To me when I go to my 2nd club out west I just love the fact it’s the complete opposite of what I get back home.   It’s a good variety and keeps me coming back for more.   I always said I don’t think I could join another “country club” as a national member.   
 
Most important it needs to be laid back atmosphere.   People will come visit the Buck Club as an escape from reality to have fun with their guest.
 
A few things from my travels that stood out from clubs who’ve done it right.
 
  Lodging – has to simple and RIGHT on site.   You can roll out of your bed and be in the dining room, practice range or first tee in 20 seconds.   The individual rooms at Ohoopee are just a nice set up.
   
  Food – keep this simple.   Few items for breakfast, lunch and dinner.   Pre Fix isn’t a bad idea but hard to please EVERYONE on property when you serve just one dish.   Make it 2-3 items and be sure to make everyone happy.
   
  Population – Keep the number at a reasonable head count.   People are travelling from far distances so getting in as much golf as possible is the main objective.   If the property has +100 golfers on site getting in a second 18 or emergency 9 may be delayed which can be frustrating.   People just want to golf as much as possible.
   
  Dress Code – leave the chinos and loafers at home.   A nice t-shirt, shorts and flip flops can still look decent if done correctly.   Again back to the vacation mindset here.
   
  Facilities – this one is important.   Rather have multiple small facilities than one large complex.    Separate pro shop, dining and lodging make for a cool “village like” atmosphere.   Tobacco Road, Ohoopee and Ballyneal all come to mind here.
   
  Post round vibe – have something to do once the golf is finished that brings everyone on property together.   Maybe a fire pit or a punchbowl putting green.   People are there to make friends so having a spot where everyone can meet with a beverage is very key.    Last thing you want is people dining solo, having post round drinks at their table and then heading back to their rooms.   That’s no fun!
   
Good luck Zac!   

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2021, 10:08:24 AM »
I have been lucky to get to see it all, across many different cultures.

I got to many places through the back door / side door as a twenty-something student, and I learned a lot from that.  Most of the things clubs do to create a great "experience" for guests are entirely unnecessary.  Like, the lobster for lunch at The National is great [and I absolutely love lobster], but when I'd go there in the off-season and the professional and the caddiemaster were up for a pleasant chat and then went and watched me hit off #1, arguably that was a BETTER experience than all the hoopla.  Some places insist on putting on a show for you, others treat everyone like they belong there.


Some of the preceding comments require a whole lot of $taffing, and if you're not a golf factory with a lot of players every day, having staff to cater to everyone's whims is going to make the place unprofitable.  An operation like Stonewall where a few people do everything is hard to beat, but it also requires that members are comfortable enough to do some things for themselves instead of having someone at their beck and call.


Also, since no one has mentioned it yet, including Zac,  :(  the most important employee is the golf course superintendent.  Having a guy who grows good grass is one thing; having one who also loves the game and sets up the golf course appropriately is worth its weight in gold.

P.S.  Everyone talks about avoiding slow play, but it's hard to do.  If someone had the stones to be a two-ball club like Brancaster or Rye, I would join in a heartbeat.


Spot on post.
Having a flexible, go with the flow staff is important, but as Tom points out,so is member selection and "training"-especially as they are expressing interest in the club.
As our owner often says, "we are not the 4 Seasons-we are family"(The Hotel, not the Landscaping Co,)
i.e.people are often more than willing to do things for themselves if they are made comfortable and empowered to do so-but some may politely seek assistance, and it should be readily available.
Palmetto(prepandemic)There is rarely a F&B person behind the counter-grab n go and record or report it to pro shop as you walk out.


At the Bridge we have always tried to not bury the customer with bag drop/arrival service, but have someone subtly available for those in need, which is a trickly line with our clientele-the pandemic showed us that many were quite happy to load and unload their own push carts and clubs, and happily play without caddies-or even on course water and F&B.
So much so that we are doing away with mandatory caddies, something I have always wanted to experiment with, and the pandemic allowed.
For the record, our caddies had their most successful season ever last year-the first year caddies were NOT mandatory-as those requesting caddies tend to be far more generous than those obligated to take caddies.
However, we will not allow the substitution of a cart for a caddie and retain our over 65 or medical requirement for carts. The myth is that "mandatory caddies" are required for a functioning program, but I see no need to tax those who don't (always) want them to satisfy the needs of those who do.
There is a formula for retaining enough caddies and it simply has to be adjusted based on good record keeping and of course having a certain number of members that can go either way on taking a caddie.


A caddie program also presents a great opportunities to provide invaluable service for the local youth community, which is a lot more work and schedule juggling, but the rewards far outweigh the effort.Again, member flexibility is key here as the rounds aren't always played when the youth are available so multiple options have to be explored.


The biggest key Tom hits on is the importance of the Superintendent-absolutely the most key employee in terms of not only the obvious things as construction/grow-i and maintenance, but also his zest for the game.


« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 10:10:25 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2021, 10:25:30 AM »
A place I enjoy going to is Chechessee.


I don't know how to quantify it, but they have done a nice job combining nice with comfortable.


Things are pretty well done there, but it never feels stuffy.


Few places do it better. What golf and a club should be.


Bob

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2021, 10:31:03 AM »
I'll take a shower when I get home.


As the secretary at The Berkshire reportedly used to tell overseas visitors complaining about the locker room, "The members bathe at their castles."


Happy New Year!


Presumably that was Col. Hunt?  ;D
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ian Galbraith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2021, 10:57:43 AM »
Best also find some ladies to ask the question to.  :)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2021, 11:04:16 AM »
When I think about what is likely the most successful Public US destination model, its gotta be Bandon:

- 5 Full courses, 2 short courses, putting course...
- Decent amount of on-site housing and dining
- At least 1 full bar
- Remote, isolated golf to be found on all of its courses.
- Plenty of available Caddies.
- Several top ranked courses.
- No real reason to leave the grounds, unless you really want some additional night life activities...


Multiple courses is the most overrated feature in destination golf, give me one course I want to play again and again and increase my chances for making birdies.


Mike,

There are several economies of scale to be found at destinations with multiple courses as well as provide additional variety to the masses who want it.  But if your goal is to play the same one over and over for a birdie-fest, i'm pretty sure there aren't any rules preventing you to just forgo the others!  ;)

P.S.  Do you think Bandon would have become what it is today if Mike had just built Bandon Dunes?  We all would have lost something if the other gems were never built...

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2021, 11:19:51 AM »
Zac,
You've had some very good feedback and I'm sure you have many great resources at you disposal.
So my input is very simple, do what you love. Club's have personalities, yours will be a mirror of your golf beliefs. If you don't start that way, it will revert over time because it will always be Zac's place, so make it so from the get go. 


If it was Don's place; national destination club or not, no tee times. Show up and make a game, I'd manage this by never allowing more "members" onsite than this approach can handle. My course property would have very limited practice ground; practice at home, come to my club to play a match. I would not have a short course or pitch and putt, but I would work with my designer to have some "courses" within the course close to the house.


I'd have some decent lodging, focusing on showers and beds, but no kitchen or bars, you come to the community house to eat and drink. Mine would be a social club. And I'd have an awesome fire pit near some golf with a little lighting.


My imaginary course would be wide and rumply, super bold in places, quiet in others. No one would play a course at home like the one they see when they visit me. I could go on and on....I hope you enjoy this as it truly is once in a lifetime stuff....make it your own.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 11:25:46 AM by Don Mahaffey »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2021, 11:37:02 AM »
Casting my eye through the posts above including my own has me re-thinking that my best golfing experiences have probably all been between holes 1-18 or 1-9 with what happened outwith this not actually mattering that much.
Sure a bit of swank is nice occasionally but generally what happens at the Club/course beforehand and afterwards is nice but generally incidental.
On reflection what I’m really looking for is interesting golf but not necessarily manicured, good putting and chipping areas, a decent nett or two to hit a few warmup balls into, somewhere warm (or cool) to if necessary change clothes and a relaxing bar/lounge area with a view to sit for a beverage and a snack or a light meal before heading for home or lodging if on a trip. Pretty much the simpler the better.
Each to their own though.
Atb

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2021, 12:09:30 PM »
I managed to get myself and the golf clubs the X miles to the golf course. I'm certain that I can navigate the grounds with my clubs on my own, thank you. And the burden of proof otherwise is on you, not me.


...and if that burden of proof needs to exist you're not likely providing the level of experience that will make me a regular.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2021, 12:15:07 PM »

 a decent nett or two to hit a few warmup balls into, somewhere warm (or cool) to if


I do love a good net!
NW Golfclub one of my favorites-right on the bay and first tee.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2021, 12:41:01 PM »
I do not wish to overcomplicate but a few thoughts
Design a practice putting green so it can be played at night with boat drinks available that is to say probably lit and convenient to service.
I support a spot to witness the return to the clubhouse thinking of Walleseye and St Enodoc.
I would add to Bogie's urinal splattrguards a small section of stainless steel grating/drain under ea urinal as well
I would also hold up Mike Young's maintenance practices at The Fields which provide great but not cushy conditions and have to make things more affordable
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2021, 03:09:02 PM »

 a decent nett or two to hit a few warmup balls into, somewhere warm (or cool) to if





I do love a good net!
NW Golfclub one of my favorites-right on the bay and first tee.


+1. NB and Brora.


And no welcome bags with tees, etc. Just a bowl by the starter.


Ira




Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2021, 06:20:23 PM »
When I think about what is likely the most successful Public US destination model, its gotta be Bandon:

- 5 Full courses, 2 short courses, putting course...
- Decent amount of on-site housing and dining
- At least 1 full bar
- Remote, isolated golf to be found on all of its courses.
- Plenty of available Caddies.
- Several top ranked courses.
- No real reason to leave the grounds, unless you really want some additional night life activities...


Multiple courses is the most overrated feature in destination golf, give me one course I want to play again and again and increase my chances for making birdies.


Mike,

There are several economies of scale to be found at destinations with multiple courses as well as provide additional variety to the masses who want it.  But if your goal is to play the same one over and over for a birdie-fest, i'm pretty sure there aren't any rules preventing you to just forgo the others!  ;)

P.S.  Do you think Bandon would have become what it is today if Mike had just built Bandon Dunes?  We all would have lost something if the other gems were never built...


I get the economies of scale, but it seems to me these golf trips can get into nothing more than belt notching, with races from course to course, versus truly absorbing and appreciating each course.  It’s not about shooting scores for me but having fun matches, it takes me a few rounds to get comfortable on a course, thus my preference.


Build a course good enough so that 18 holes is enough for golfers to stay put and be happy for 3 days.  When I was at Secession 15 moths ago one group left in the afternoon to go play Berkeley Hall for the PM round and missed lunch, drinks and dinner, which I viewed as a waste.  The experience stem to stern on site should be enough.  And it is at Secession these guys had never been there before when they made their plans.


Have the additional courses at Casa de Campo added anything to the elevate the experience?
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2021, 10:15:36 AM »
A question if I may.
Once you’ve played a few top level elite links courses or heathland courses or other courses in a particular category do you gain anything special experience wise from playing another not that dissimilar course within the same category?
Or would you be more likely to gain something special experience wise, something unforgettable, something different to the norm, from playing somewhere very different and unusual say for example Askernish, Lofoten Links, Himalayan/Nepal, a desert course, a course within a South African game reserve etc etc?
Just asking.:)
Atb


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Golf Experiences
« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2021, 10:55:42 AM »
A question if I may.
Once you’ve played a few top level elite links courses or heathland courses or other courses in a particular category do you gain anything special experience wise from playing another not that dissimilar course within the same category?
Or would you be more likely to gain something special experience wise, something unforgettable, something different to the norm, from playing somewhere very different and unusual say for example Askernish, Lofoten Links, Himalayan/Nepal, a desert course, a course within a South African game reserve etc etc?
Just asking. :)
Atb


I would say you would learn and remember more from the latter, but nearly all examples you cite are quite wildly remote experiences, something quite different than Zac is developing, which while remote and stand alone,is 35 minutes from 3 mid sized cities.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 08:12:34 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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