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Peter Pallotta

For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« on: December 28, 2020, 03:05:13 PM »
I've read many posts from those of you who are good golfers and who've now reached your 60s and 70s -- and every one of you notes/sighs over a loss of distance, particularly off the tee.

So, a question: since your approach shots now have to cover more distance and you're coming into greens with more club, has good architecture become more important to you?

Do you notice it more? Do you 'play the architecture' more now as you get older?

In short, does  'quality golf course architecture' actually do what it purports to do? Does it live up to the hype?

« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 06:17:05 PM by Peter Pallotta »

John Kavanaugh

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2020, 03:33:20 PM »
Once you play every shot from the middle of the fairway the bad melds into the good.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2020, 07:03:52 PM »
Peter, at my best I was a two and played the back tees most of the time. I was never long but was a pretty good iron player who could hit it high. Now, at 74, I have moved up to tees that are more comfortable, around 6200-6400 yards. My handicap  has been about six or seven for years. My short game has gotten better because I practice it a lot. I don't hit my irons as high so I have to think where is the best place to hit the ball knowing that it will run out a bit. I don't make nearly as many birdies as I used to and only make an eagle when I hole out the shot to the green.


I do find that I notice hazards more because most are in play. I use the ground more than I used to so I pay attention to how the ground moves. There is also a difference in why I play. I used to play to score or play in competitions. Now I can't compete with anyone so I play to enjoy the course. Because of that I notice more things about the design of the course. 
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Carl Rogers

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2020, 07:55:43 PM »
67 on 12/19. I now play  with a set of clubs with lofts of 6 degrees between iron clubs, 58 degree wedge and 21 degree fairway metal.  11 clubs and some times 10.
I want to walk and carry a lighter bag.  The same index as Tommy.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 07:57:16 PM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

mike_beene

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2020, 11:28:36 PM »
I have turned 60 but three years ago had fusion to address old American football stenosis. The worlds best teacher has me now hitting the ball better than I ever have. Lingering damage has taken away leg strength . I was a low single digit but now can’t hit a drive past 230. Love walking golf course and the short game / green complex’s more than ever. I will get back to maybe a 5, but if I play badly 90 is in play.

David Ober

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2020, 11:41:40 PM »
53 now, but I've lost a LOT of distance from my 30's.


Definitely play a different game now and, yes, notice and "interact" with architecture much more now than ever.

Peter Pallotta

Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2020, 11:43:06 PM »
Thanks gents.

Mike and Tommy brought to mind another & different question, ie is distance off the tee really of that much importance, even for good amateurs?

From your posts, it seems that the *only* reason your handicaps have risen from 2s to 7s is because you now hit it shorter (though not short) off the tee.

Despite other areas of your games having gotten better over the years, you now shoot higher scores:

Is good scoring -- even at the amateur level and on strategic golf courses -- really so dependent on driver distance?


Tommy Williamsen

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2020, 12:02:59 AM »
Peter, even though I hit it shorter off the tee I am a similar distance from the green because I have moved up to a shorter tee. I don’t score as well because I can’t get my shots into the green as close to the pin as I’d like. I don’t hit it as high so I can’t control the distance as well and if a pin is tucked behind a bunker I probably can’t go after it. I have fewer birdies and more three putts.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

mike_beene

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2020, 12:12:38 AM »
I probably need to move up another tee. And my 1.5 is now a 13. When you can’t get to a third of the holes in regulation you have to be pretty sharp to shoot a good number. I have lost green side sand speed and am relearning a new method. Not strong enough for my old technique. I bet my driver carry is 220. I love playing more than ever

David Ober

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2020, 12:26:34 AM »
Thanks gents.

Mike and Tommy brought to mind another & different question, ie is distance off the tee really of that much importance, even for good amateurs?

From your posts, it seems that the *only* reason your handicaps have risen from 2s to 7s is because you now hit it shorter (though not short) off the tee.

Despite other areas of your games having gotten better over the years, you now shoot higher scores:

Is good scoring -- even at the amateur level and on strategic golf courses -- really so dependent on driver distance?


Distance off the tee is hugely important to scoring -- for all golfers.


I'm still a +1 or +2 in the warmer months, but give me 40 more yards on just my ~245 average tee ball and I'd be two full strokes better.

Peter Pallotta

Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2020, 12:50:29 AM »
Thanks again, gents - many interesting tidbits & lines of enquiry.
I was never much good, and indeed am now probably better than I've ever been, but I'm getting older; so I wanted to get the good players' experience/perspective.
I think I need to start paying more attention to shafts, ie the best ones for my current game  -- a little hard to do because I've always tended to buy used clubs and sometimes had/have to settle for what I got/get. 
When I took up the game, I had some Hogan's with the Apex 4s, but they seemed to go too high compared to DG-S300s in another set of Hogan's, and I preferred the latter.
These days, and especially since I started using or trying out Ping irons, I can really see the difference -- when I try a friend's Eye 2s or I3s with the JZ and z-z65 shafts, I get high (and to Tommy's point, very useful) trajectories.  But my own S58s came with the CFT shafts, and the trajectory is noticeably lower.
But none of this had I thought about in terms of compensating for losing distance off the tee.

PS - thanks, David: just saw your post now. It's striking.

PSS - you know, it's interesting, ie Tommy's reference to once having focused on shooting low scores and competing, but now focusing more on the architecture. I have always, from day one, been a 'card and pencil type' -- I cared about my score, and wanted to see the average score go down throughout a season, and year after year. BUT, since I never much got better than a low 80s average, I knew I wasn't really able to compete with anyone good, and I felt a bit foolish focusing *too* much on my score, since whether it was an 81 or an 87 didn't seem a vert big deal -- neither was very good anyway. So I've always been the card and pencil type who actually spent a lot of time looking at/thinking about/trying to 'play the architecture'. 



« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 01:12:09 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Pat Burke

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2020, 12:55:12 AM »
58 now and only played a few times in the last few years
Right shoulder got pretty damaged in an accident awhile back
So my right arm can not externally rotate to allow shallowing of Club on downswing


I am at least 2 clubs shorter than 2 years ago.


So with less speed comes less spin and height.


But the few time’s I’ve played, I’d say my interest in curving shots has increased more than and “architectural “ interest.  Obviously the architecture doesn’t influence the shaping of shots


By the way, and I do NOT want to derail this thread, but I can curve these balls quite a bit until short irons
It’s kind of fun (and frustrating At same time) to be facing this, but the OP dies present a different way for me to approach it possibly

John Crowley

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2020, 01:16:18 AM »
Thanks gents.

Mike and Tommy brought to mind another & different question, ie is distance off the tee really of that much importance, even for good amateurs?

From your posts, it seems that the *only* reason your handicaps have risen from 2s to 7s is because you now hit it shorter (though not short) off the tee.

Despite other areas of your games having gotten better over the years, you now shoot higher scores:

Is good scoring -- even at the amateur level and on strategic golf courses -- really so dependent on driver distance?


Distance off the tee is hugely important to scoring -- for all golfers.


True that, which makes the case to move up as you lose distance. The USGA/PGA chart for playing it forward is a good starting point to gauge the total yardage you should be playing (that is if you want to enjoy more).


But distance is overemphasized here and in the the wider golf world. More focus on the game from 50 yards in can pay off as distance diminishes. 95% of my practice is pitching, chipping and putting.


Now that my putting slump (months) appears to be over, I am shooting my age more often. Got it today on the number. Missed a 5 ft birdie on 18 to be one under the number.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 01:21:05 AM by John Crowley »

Jim Hoak

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2020, 01:21:11 AM »
As has been said here, decreased distance off the tee is a problem, but it is manageable somewhat by moving up in tees.  What is equally troubling or more so is the lack of height and spin to control the shots into the greens.

Paul Rudovsky

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2020, 01:33:03 AM »
1.  Not sure I know anyone who hasn't gotten older!  ;D


2.  If you really want to lose distance, aside from getting older have triple bypass heart surgery...which rally affects flexibility thru your torso.  In my early 30's (say mid 1970's...I am 76 now), playing balata ands persimmon, I could carry drive a good 250 or so on flat land and with no wind assist.  Today that number is like 170-175 of carry.  Index wise my low was 1.9 about 18-20 years ago...today in the 13's approaching 14.  Other huge difference is not being able to generate height or spin (but that recalls the old golf joke...that ends, "if you hit it that short why would you want to spin it?"


3.  Hitting it much much straighter...which means when I am playing decently, can still score from the right tees...now playing from 5000-5200 yards.


4.  Have gotten used to lack of competitiveness and try to focus on architecture more.


5.  But interestingly, in terms of scoring the biggest change for me is I make lots of mental errors that never happened before...things my mind used to automatically do, it can still do, but it is no longer automatic, I have to FOCUS on it.  For example, if I get over a putt and decide I want to hit it firmer, I have to explicitly say to myself "play less break"....30 years ago I did that automatically.  That can really eat into scoring. 


6.  Finally, after there surgery I went thru almost a year ago, I appreciate being out there more...great to be looking at the green side of grass.

archie_struthers

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2020, 03:07:08 AM »
 8)

 Shot some low scores but was never an "elite" player because I drove it so crooked. Played really bad for the last four or five years but starting to feel better about it recently. Got a little jaded  but made a conscious effort to enjoy golf and had a lot of fun playing with my friends late in the summer.

Distance isn't really an issue at 64 even though the young guys hit it much further with the driver. Think if I lost 20 lbs. might hit it better.  Had it a few under for most of the round the other day on an easy course but it was 42 degrees and windy, so you never know  ;D   Looking forward to improving and might even play some tournament golf if able to find some consistency.  Philly has a pretty good senior and super senior tournament program. Thinking of coach Valvano when I say this, so keep playing boys , you never know when you might find it again!
 
As to the question do you appreciate the architecture more as you age. Not for me.  I think you either get it or don't and you see the shots and holes in your head if you do! Experience might come more in the construction component!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 09:38:04 AM by archie_struthers »

Thomas Dai

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2020, 06:07:43 AM »
As age has increased the aspects that have adversely effected my game the most are lack of carry distance from the tee and lower trajectory with longer/mid length approach shots.
Atb

William_G

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2020, 07:16:03 AM »
I'm still a good player  ???   ;D
It's all about the golf!

A.G._Crockett

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2020, 07:39:35 AM »
Pete,

To your original question, yes, I think i am much more aware of the GCA now at 68; I just have to play the game at least somewhat differently. 


Par 5's that used to have risk-reward decisions for me now are just risk, really; I can get into a lot of trouble around the green, but really can't get to many of them in two.  Like others, I not only don't hit it far enough anymore, but I don't hit it high enough anymore, either.  Perhaps more to the point, there is an increasing number of par 4's on which I must think carefully about where I want to miss the green; on my home course, there are three par 4's on which my stroke average is 5.0 on the nose.

I never made a LOT of birdies, but I make a lot less now, though I putt well; I just don't hit it particularly close, largely because of the clubs I'm hitting into greens.  And along those lines, I've given up on fairway woods completely; driver, then 4 hybrids before my longest iron, which is a 6 iron.

But I'll add this:  I've enjoyed the battle of not only trying to keep my strength and speed and trying to keep tweaking my equipment to combat my birth certificate, but also the challenge of getting around the golf course a different way.  I often think back to Pat Mucci, when he had been quite ill, writing about the pleasure of "tacking" his way around a golf course differently than he had when he was completely healthy.  That was years ago, but it's stuck with me, and I've found it helpful.  Planning your approach shot on a long par four with less regard for where the pin is and more consideration of the best chipping area is NOT a bad way to play the game.  I've come to understand that the best way to have a good short game is to miss in places where you have a reasonable chance to get up and down, and my 7 iron and I have developed a close personal relationship thru countless bump-and-runs that keep me in the hole.


The other thing that has really helped me is the Carolinas Golf Association, which runs an incredible number of tournaments for old guys at yardages that are friendly.  There are both 65 and 70 year old divisions, and the yardages for those are between 5500-6000, and they run another series where you pick your division by yardage, not age.  A few of the tournaments are individual, but most are four balls, and all have both gross and net winners.  In pre-pandemic 2019, the CGA had SIXTY tournaments for seniors, and I find that playing competitively is such fun that to whatever extent moving up tees and/or the loss of distance are issues, they just sort of disappear.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Steve Lang

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2020, 09:26:08 AM »
 8)  Peter, No ideal restorations are ever possible, eh?  So what is your definition of a good player?  Are handicap index and age benchmarks appropriate for discussion or independent?  I was a 5 some 20 years ago, but a torn rotator cuff changed all that 5 yrs ago... 210-220 today is good for me ... currently an 11, good and bad is all relative but fun is always at play if you use the right brain approach!


I too am 68 and concur with all the thoughts already voiced, moving up tees only solves the first shot dilemma when competing with longer players... going graphite can give you much higher trajectories and really just getting into the right flex can do that...  so aren't you ready for some custom fit clubs???  Find the heads that look good and provide consistency and get the right shafts in them instead of making do with what seems affordable 2nd or 3rd hand....


I got into gca in early 80's to just confirm and expand knowledge of what was behind what I was seeing and experiencing, mainly from weeklong trips to Pinehurst/Aberdeen, NC "Sand Hills" area.  ...  yes it helps to understand gca, but the engine room still needs to respond to the helm!


so play more match play... score still counts but the totals are a lot lower
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 09:58:05 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

A.G._Crockett

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2020, 10:33:11 AM »
And it occurs to me, as I'm sure it has to most of you, that a great part of the beauty of this game we love is that we are even having this discussion.  It is NOT a discussion that takes place regarding other sports that I've been a part of, and that's most of them.

Things like changing tees, or tweaking equipment, or just playing the game differently in order to cope with age, as opposed to having to move on and leave the sport is a beautiful thing.  It's make-believe, for sure, but make-believe is good and healthy and restorative. 
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Garland Bayley

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2020, 11:45:22 AM »

so play more match play... score still counts but the totals are a lot lower


You don't even have to move forward if you don't want to. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David_Madison

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2020, 02:48:21 PM »
Absolutely it's the case. I'm 63 and still can hit it 270 because of the equipment (but still 20 - 30 years shorter than I was at my longest) and I'm at least a club or two shorter with my irons. Not just shorter but shots fly lower and with less spin. Play primarily on firm Bermuda greens. Approach shots definitely now roll out further than before, and I have to play softer lines whenever the pin is protected. Also can't get close to front cups unless I'm willing to risk landing short of the green. When planning approaches now I don't read just the greens but also 10-20 yards around them.


Play hickories and you'll almost certainly get an enhanced version of what happens when you get older.


Just had an interesting experience... am 2 weeks off of a surgical procedure and can only swing at half speed at most. Played Pinehurst #2 with my hickory jigger and putter. Max shot maybe 130-140. Ground was firm and there was a ton of roll. A totally fascinating experience plotting my way around. Connected with the architecture in ways that I'd never do otherwise.

Mark Mammel

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Re: For Good Players who've Gotten Older
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2020, 12:03:35 AM »
Let me put in a work for those of us that were never very good, but also never really bad. I tell my pals who were scratch that I am sorry for them, for they see how far they have fallen. At my best I was a 9 (for a cup of coffee); I am now a 14-16 index. Like most of us here I was always a sort of golf nerd, but of course the cred is tough when you're not a good player. Who cares? I really appreciate architecture now that I am shorter, and need to think more about what happens when I am short of the green on my approach. And also to really appreciate the green complex, since I like to play the running chip or pitch. Of course I play forward, usually 58-6200 yards (about the yardage for most links courses from the member tee boxes- "plenty of golf from the yellow boxes lads," I remember hearing), and as Clint Eastwood said, I "know my limitations." I enjoy seeing great courses more today, as I see more of the nuance now. I guess that's the magic of the game that keeps me excited at 69.
So much golf to play, so little time....

Mark