Par 5s where interest isn't derived from hazards

[Peter Flory]

I would say that the primary reason that 13 at Lawsonia is interesting doesn't involve hazards... although there are a lot of them about. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,

What about the 8th at Crystal Downs? Seems to fit the same bill.

It had already been nominated and seconded, so I didn't pile on, even though it was the first hole I thought of.


That is such an interesting hole, because it isn't obvious where it takes up all the elevation.  From tee to green you climb 50 feet, but to the first landing area it's only twelve feet, and the second shot about 15 more if you stay to the right.  Yes, even from the best spot in the fairway, the third shot is more than 20 feet uphill !!

Tom,


#8 at Crystal Downs is an obvious choice, but I’m inclined to also nominate the #16th hole. The first two shots are played to a very wide fairway whose topography offers little movement or interest.


But, then comes the short pitch into that green and depending on the pin position can be a very difficult shot, IMO.


Very different than the famous 8th, but to me in its own way very interesting.


Curious whether you agree.

[David_Madison]

The fifth hole on Pinehurst#2. A flattish hole in terms of elevation, but the key playing elements are the portions so heavily tilted that it's a challenge to keep the ball in the fairway and then on the green. Just the tiniest bit off and what should be a 4.5 hole just became a 6 or 7.

[Thomas Dai]

I think that if you are just looking for landforms affecting play / strategy (as opposed to bunkers, water or OB), then 3 out of the 6 holes at Carne are excellent examples: 1 and 5 on Kilmore and 18 on Hackett.

+1
I’m actually pretty partial to 5 of the 6 par-5’s at Carne.
As to the ‘other one’, be nice if the 4th on the Hackett wasn’t slightly blind from the tee and if somehow (if possible) the green was over the ditch that is currently behind the green.
Guess on the Hackett the 13th and ‘my modified’ 4th would be DQ’d from this thread due to having OB along one side.
Atb

[Kalen Braley]

I think Ballyneal 16 could fit in this category.  Yes it has a primary bunker complex that pinches in to affect the 2nd shot, but IIRC, the terrain and elevation differential provide the most interest/challenge.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think that if you are just looking for landforms affecting play / strategy (as opposed to bunkers, water or OB), then 3 out of the 6 holes at Carne are excellent examples: 1 and 5 on Kilmore and 18 on Hackett.

+1
I’m actually pretty partial to 5 of the 6 par-5’s at Carne.
As to the ‘other one’, be nice if the 4th on the Hackett wasn’t slightly blind from the tee and if somehow (if possible) the green was over the ditch that is currently behind the green.
Guess on the Hackett the 13th and ‘my modified’ 4th would be DQ’d from this thread due to having OB along one side.
Atb

Yes I very much enjoy the 13th and 10th also. But you are correct that OB on 13 defines the hole in conjunction with the bunker short left of the green. As for 10, exciting hole but if we’re honest, there is no strategic element to it so I’m not sure it could qualify for the high levels this thread aspires to.... I suggested moving 4 green back in 2014 (along with the tee forward) but don’t think there is an appetite.

[Bill Brightly]

Nice topic! This immediately made me think of Ridgewood (NJ) where Tillinghast uses a touch of blindness on the second shot landing zones to interject doubt on all five of the par 5's he built there. My favorite is 3 East which has a superb green: three distinct tiers set on an angle and the golfer simply must approach from the fairway to have any hope of hitting the proper section to avoid a three-putt. The tee shot is straight-forward but the second shot LZ is obscured by a mild rise in terrain. The tendency is to aim at the pin but that is too far right, the LZ is actually much further left. A right rough miss is actually dead, you'll do well to hit the green as you've short-sided yourself.

[David Ober]

In SoCal, in my experience:


4 at Lakeside: long, with two strange angles on the first two shots and then a very tough approach to a small, difficult green.


2 at Wilshire: GREAT green complex

[Garland Bayley]

I think that if you are just looking for landforms affecting play / strategy (as opposed to bunkers, water or OB), then 3 out of the 6 holes at Carne are excellent examples: 1 and 5 on Kilmore and 18 on Hackett.


There are numerous other great examples. My favourite par-5 in Ireland (8 at Murvagh) is one. 3 at Baltray is another. 16 at Enniscrone also a good example.

Ally,


I'm hopefully to see both Carne, Baltray and Enniscrone next year - all dependent on travel restrictions of course. Is Murvagh worth a stop between Sligo and Rosapenna?

I'm not Ally, but my preference is Murvagh over Baltray. In fact, Donegal in general over Baltray.

[Kris Spence]

Roaring Gap has 2 #7 & #11 that rely  strictly on natural topography for strategic interest.  I think 11 stands out, it is more dramatic and twist left off the tee before the elevated green and approach are revealed.  One of my all time favorite holes.

[Philip Gawith]

The ones that spring to my mind are 7 at RSG and 3 at RCP. I'd also add 16 at RCP on the days that it's a par 5. All three have incredible land movements. 7 at RSG it's more the tee shot, but 3 at RCP it's the last 100 yards and the area around the green. Virtually unplayable downwind when the ground is firm.


The one other one that popped into my head is 15 at PVGC. There's the lake in front off the tee and there are bunkers up by the green, but my impression of the hole is the wide fairway at the start of the hole that just gets narrower and narrower as you continue along the hole. So it has hazards on it, but I don't think that's what creates the interest (very much unlike its brother).

I agree Michael with your comments on RSG and PVGC. The 7th at RSG actually has quite a few bunkers but you are right, especially the further back you go, that the challenge lies overwhelmingly in the tee shot.


I also thought about 15 at PV for the reason you gave. A normal mortal stands on that tee knowing that nothing less than three very good shots in a row will get you on that green - and that is a considerable mental challenge!

[Peter Pallotta]

I can't add anything, as my go-to 8th at CD has already been discussed by my betters.
But Kris Spence's reference to a hole that relies "strictly on natural topography for strategic interest" really hit home: it's such a clear and succinct phrase/description of pretty much every golf hole I've ever really liked and thought really good.
Maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but it sure seems to me that the *best* kind of strategic interest is the kind that comes strictly from the natural topography (whether actual or brilliantly faked/created):
Not only does it look most wonderful, but it plays that way too. There's something particularly powerful & challenging & interesting about a strategic choice engendered by Nature and not the Hand of Man.

[Tim Martin]

I can't add anything, as my go-to 8th at CD has already been discussed by my betters.
But Kris Spence's reference to a hole that relies "strictly on natural topography for strategic interest" really hit home: it's such a clear and succinct phrase/description of pretty much every golf hole I've ever really liked and thought really good.
Maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but it sure seems to me that the *best* kind of strategic interest is the kind that comes strictly from the natural topography (whether actual or brilliantly faked/created):
Not only does it look most wonderful, but it plays that way too. There's something particularly powerful & challenging & interesting about a strategic choice engendered by Nature and not the Hand of Man.

Peter-How can a “brilliantly faked/created feature”be attributed to the natural topography?

[Peter Pallotta]

Tim -
I added that aside because I know there are golf holes I've played that I'd swear were pre-existing but that might've actually been shaped/created instead, at least in part.

[Also: I've read here Tom D talking about several of his golf holes that have always been considered completely natural/found, but only because no one has ever noticed-identified the shaping that had in fact been done.]

In short: I was talking both about golf holes that *are* wholly natural and golf holes so seamlessly blended into the site that they *appear* wholly natural. The results, for me in the playing, are the same.

[Steve Lang]

   How about a nice view?


1st at La Cantera Resort Course (Weiskopf/Morrish), home of TX Open for a while,  top of limestone quarry, maybe highest point in area, only 561 yds but gradual 90 ft elevation drop from tee to green, gentle left to right dogleg hugging slope of hill right, #1 handicap hole.


Slope varies from approx 14% off tee to fairway cut, then 8-5% in middle, to 2-3% approaching green... 

[Tim Martin]

Tim -
I added that aside because I know there are golf holes I've played that I'd swear were pre-existing but that might've actually been shaped/created instead, at least in part.

[Also: I've read here Tom D talking about several of his golf holes that have always been considered completely natural/found, but only because no one has ever noticed-identified the shaping that had in fact been done.]

In short: I was talking both about golf holes that *are* wholly natural and golf holes so seamlessly blended into the site that they *appear* wholly natural. The results, for me in the playing, are the same.

Peter-I guess everyone’s eye is different as to what seems to fit the land and what is forced. For me the tie ins are the toughest feature to be made to look natural especially with pushed up greens.

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,

I've heard a few courses like Pebble take advantage of the Gravity Hill concept where it looks like a putt breaks uphill, whether it was found by the designer or created. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_hill

There is a cool one about an hour from where I live, that you would swear the creek next to the road appears to be running uphill!

[Tim Martin]

Tim,

I've heard a few courses like Pebble take advantage of the Gravity Hill concept where it looks like a putt breaks uphill, whether it was found by the designer or created. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_hill

There is a cool one about an hour from where I live, that you would swear the creek next to the road appears to be running uphill!

I make enough bad reads that I should be able to use “Gravity Hill” soon as an excuse. I’m sick that I just learned about the concept.

[Michael Whitaker]

Tim - one of my favorites would be #8 at Cabot Links (was #2 when I visited). A rollicking par-five with multiple options for the big hitters, while providing a fun and challenging route for guys like me. Beautiful scenery to boot. 

[Mike_Trenham]

#2 Galen Hall in Wernersville, PA.    


A super blind and down hill par 5 by Alex Findlay.  It may have been a par 4 originally as the original #2 was a par 3.   There is one bunker but that’s just eye candy.




Challenge comes from


1) The blind nature of the drive and second shot.
2) The awkward lies.
3) Estimating distances on each sot as its so much down hill.


Kyle Harris and Joe Bausch certainly know best.

[Tim Gallant]

What about the 8th at Brancaster, particularly when the tide is out?

[Adam T]

The 11th hole at Roaring Gap, "Eleventh Heaven," rolls over some severe landforms. Ran has two excellent photos of it here: https://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/roaring-gap/

[Tom_Doak]

What about the 8th at Brancaster, particularly when the tide is out?

If that's not a hazard, then there is no such thing anymore.  [Of course, technically, there isn't.]

[Jeff Schley]

Haven't read the thread but instantly what I think of is a downhill dogleg par 5. Very few great uphill holes, but so many very attractive looking downhill holes.

[Duncan Cheslett]

The wonderful 7th at Pleasington in Lancashire is worthy of consideration.


Two distinct fairways offset from one another with 60 ft of elevation change between them connected by a chute which can be found from the tee. It is one of the most memorable par 5s you will ever play and undoubtedly the course's "signature hole".

https://www.pleasington-golf.co.uk/hole_7


Pleasington is an excellent and locally highly regarded course which flies completely under the GCA radar - probably because of its proximity to the links courses of Southport.

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-course/pleasington