[Ronald Montesano]

Although I believe Bill Love was point man, there is a course in Blairsville (40 minutes north of Pittsburgh) called Tom's Run that is a fine golf course.  Funny thing is, the signature hole, a 145 yard toss down a ridge, is the least memorable hole of the 18.  ACA did a redesign (basically of two holes) at Orchard Park Country Club, 15 miles south of Buffalo, a decade of so ago.  They eliminated the old 17th and 18th (which were way too close for comfort, especially in the dawning age of techno-bombers) and built two new holes, neither of which looks anything at all like what Walter J. would have envisioned.  The par 4 hole is a nice hole, but the par 5 they build is abysmal.  You cannot hit driver anywhere and you actually end up hitting 4 iron, 3 wood, to the hole.  The two really stand out as black sheep on the golf course.

[CJ Carder]

Here's what their website says is coming in '08 and '09:
* Blue Ridge Shadows GC, Front Royal, Va
* Williamsburg National II, (Yorktown) Williamsburg, Va
* Oak Creek Club Golf Course, Upper Marlboro, Md
* Creekmoor Country Club, Raymore, Mo
* Dogwood Trace, Petersburg, Va
* Eagle Ridge GC, Lakewood, NJ

Any info on any of these projects?

I had a post a few months back about one of the worst par 3's I'd ever played.  It was #14 on the Yorktown Course at Williamsburg National.  The course was a good collection of about 11 ok - decent holes with about 6 holes that bordered on the non-memorable or just downright boring and my 1 terrible par 3. 

The course was designed to be another playing option in addition to the Nicklaus Group designed "Jamestown" Course for the greater Williamsburg residents and more specifically, the residents of the Greensprings Plantation.  More challenging than the Jamestown, the 11 decent holes make good use of the land with the others leaving you with a great feeling of "seems like they could have done more here."

In the end, it's a playable course.  It won't beat you up too bad if any one particular aspect of your game happens to be off that day, and it's quite possible to shoot a solid number there if you're on your game (see my 75 first trip, completely sight unseen and no yardage guide or course map).

Ultimately I think that's what most Ault Clark designs shoot for.  The average golfer seems to enjoy the courses they build and if that's what the developers want, then they seem to accomplish their goal.

Here's the link to my thread on the par 3 I strongly disliked:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33599.msg670502.html#msg670502

[Jonathan Cummings]

Let me echo Rob's comments.  I'm finishing an article/review on Oak Creek which will be out in Sept.  Architecturally this may well be the best Tom Clark course of the nearly 400 attributed to the Ault/Clark group (6 architects have worked for the firm over their 45 years in business).

Oak Creek is a sister course of Cross Creek and River Creek - all upper scale housing communities built by the same construction company.  It there's a rub at Oak Creek it's that the routing is strongly dictated by the housing - especially on the frontside. 

The course needs to mature as I found the conditioning of Oak Creek quite poor in many places.  Also the 18th hole is blind and forced and a poor enough closer to set the standard.

That said Oak Creek is still a very good golf course.

Off the tees you're faced with pretty standard A/C stuff, but from 150 yards in Oak Creek shines.  The green complexes and surrounds are diverse with interesting slopes, ledges, and bunkering more in the Gil Hanse than the Art Hills spirit.  The hole-to-hole variety in length, approach elevations and angles well examines your iron play.  There are even alley-ways into some greens that will allow bump and runs.  As the head pro Jay Bowden says, "Oak is fun and playable"

I agree.

I've know Tom for 25 years and played golf at Oak Creek with him.  I rode him upon seeing the bunkering at Oak Creek saying that he must of recently graduated from the Doak/C/C school of bunker design.  He only smiled.

Another thing about Oak Creek is that it is surely the most exclusive membership in the mid-Atlantic.....  When I played it a few months ago there were only 33 members.  I'll admit the course had only been open for a few weeks and their goal is to get a standard number of members.  But it must be nice to have a golf course to yourself whenever you want 7 days a week.

JC 

[Carl Rogers]

In Suffolk, VA, Sleepy Hole golf course (originally a 1972 +/- Russell Breeden design) is an Ault & Clark remodeling finished in 2004.  They totally re-built the greens and did some bunker re-work and enhancement(s), both of which it badly needed.  The course's ownership has bounced around between the City of Portsmouth and the City of Suffolk (very political and very boring 25+ year old story).  Now, I think there is a lease arrangement between a developer and the City of Suffolk.

In the Confidential Guide, Tom gave it a 4 which is probably about right.  Had he played the course, which I do not think he did, I would be interested in his opinion of the 14th hole which is buried in the middle of the routing.

I live 2 minutes from the course, play there a lot and have a large number of mixed feelings about it.  10 minutes from my house is Riverfront Golf Course.  It would be more than slighty unfair to compare the two courses, as Riverfront as I have stated on the web site will eventually be carefully studied by those researching Tom's work some time in the future.  Riverfront is in a whole different league.

Did Ault-Clark or which of their associates were assigned the project make Sleepy Hole golf course a better course than it was?  The answer to that is basically yes.  Some fairway bunker removal / re-location has made several holes easier for the higher handicapper.  Total reworking several green complexes has made the course play with a greater variety.

The weakness of the Ault-Clark work is the par 3, 12th hole situated as you drive in the front gate.  I guess they were compelled to create some eye candy and did so by a pond, retaining wall looking a bit too too Myrtle Beachish.  There was room and opportunity to create a long par 3 that would have contrasted the other par 3's which tend to be of similar distance on each of the 9's.  On the back nine, they switched a long par 4 with what was originally a short par 5 for some reason strange to me. 

The 18th hole at Sleepy Hole is the signature hole for course and one of the signature holes in the Tidewater area.  It is a long par 4, with 2 forced carries that border the Nansemond River.  Ault-Clark reworked the landing area, flattening it, making it fairer in my opinion, but they reworked the green in an opposite way to make it play much harder.  A green side bunker is the bail out for the approach shot from 180-200 yards.  The green now falls away toward the water and is a hard to hold even with a wedge. 

The ultimate remodeling of this course, imho, would have been to solve the routing problem in the middle of the property which results in forced lay-up carry tee shot and 90 degree dogleg par 4 6th hole and a short not real interesting par 3 7th hole.  That would have probably required the re-routing of half the course, that was perhaps outside the boundaries of the possible. The 5th and 17th holes need help also.  The course needs more tree removal too.

I played there last Saturday and paid $35.00 (discount card aided) with a cart.  It is an exceedingly easy course to walk and aside from some bunker maintenance in very good shape bordering on the fast and firm.

[Mike_Cirba]

Rob & Jonathan,

Thanks for the info about Oak Creek.   I plan to get down there in the next couple of weeks and your posts have me looking forward to seeing something different from A/C.


All,

I'd just add a tidbit that IMO, the best work done by the firm in the past 15 years was done by two former associates who have struck out on their own in recent years, Bill Love and Dan Schlegel.

I've yet to play a course by either one of them, either under the AC banner or under their own respective firms that I didn't like a great deal.

[Joel_Stewart]

There is only so much lip stick you can place on them.  The fact is they have never done anything worth mention on this web site.  For as long as they have been in business, how many courses are rated in the top 100 by any magazine - my guess is a big fat "0".

As for Bill Love, he is a very nice man but is a landscape architect and not a golf architect.  He did a great job at the entrance of my club but his work on the golf course (and I told this to him last week to his face) is a disgrace to classic architecture and an embarresment to our club.  He is like a deer in headlights and has no understanding of classic architecture or even shot strategy.   When one member asked him about doing a restoration to our 1927 club he asked if we were going to rip up the irrigation since thats how classic courses were built.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joel,

While I could never vouch for Bill Love having any knowledge or sensitivity of classic restoration issues, much less the particular micro-climate and agronomic considerations prevalent at your club, I can tell you that if you are in the east and play Laurel Hill GC in Lorton VA I think you'd like it a great deal.

[Lester George]

Joel,

What club are you speaking of.  I'm sorry, but I am not familiar with your club.

Lester

[Paul Jones]

Joel,

I have played Laurel Valley and loved it.  I thought Bill Love did an excellent job.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Paul - wasn't Laurel Valley Dick Wilson??  JC

[Joel_Stewart]

What club are you speaking of.  I'm sorry, but I am not familiar with your club.

Its the Olympic Club in San Francisco, host of the US Open in 2012.  We have a serious nematode problem in the poa and need to replace the greens.  Bill Love has recieved the gift of a lifetime, choosen over Mike Devries and Gil Hanse by the superintendent who has known Bill for 20 years when they worked together in Kansas City.  It's one of the most amazing stories, a non member (the super) pulling rank over the members at this world famous club to bring in his buddy.

Mike:
I looked at a few photos of the club and maybe I would like it, hard to say.  I see that he has done the same thing at Olympic, built enormous built up tees which don't fit and placed ugly oval and round bunkers in with no form that do not tie into the landscape.  At Olympic he should be ashamed of himself for the brutal scaring of the landscape.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joel,

I'm sorry to hear that things didn't go well at Olympic.   It certainly sounds like the vetting and selection process left a lot to be desired.

Contrary to general opinion, I do think it takes a certain knowledge and sensitivity to do credible "restoration" work.  These days, with the dearth of new jobs out there, it seems every architect on the planet is forced to suddenly market themselves as some type of restoration or renovation expert and you know as well as I that simply isn't true. 

In the case of Bill Love, I certainly wouldn't call his original work "classic" in the sense that you and I prefer, but I have also not seen him build anything atrocious or completely insenstive to natural surrounds.   I'm not sure if that was Love's charge from the Olympic Club, but I have to wonder what his marching orders were.

[Joel_Stewart]

Mike:

To a certain degree you are correct, Bill Love is a "yes man" to our superintendent but with his resume he is probably a yes man on all of his jobs.  Sadly he hasn't either tried or been successful in doing any restoration efforts at our club.  I have watched Bill's work now for 5 years at Olympic and I guess he can blame it on many things but his end product is terrible which all lead back to the architect.  Last week at the membership meeting a number of members asked for the club to bring in another architect for a 2nd look.  It was turned down, at least for the time being. 

Below is a link to an article he wrote for Golfweek.  Am I wrong that he has nothing to say and nothing to discuss:

 http://www.golfweeksbest.com/GolfweeksBest/article.asp?ID=247

Lastly, how does Laurel Links rank among the top 10 in Virginia?

Virginia
1. Homestead Resort (Cascades), Hot Springs (No. 46 c)
2. Royal New Kent, Providence Forge (m)
3. Golden Horseshoe (Gold), Williamsburg (m)
4. Riverfront GC at Harbor View, Suffolk (m)
5. Homestead Resort (Lower Cascades), Hot Springs (c)
6. Mattaponi Springs, Ruther Glen (m)
7. Independence, Midlothian (m)
8. Bay Creek (Palmer), Cape Charles (m)
9. Kingsmill (River), Williamsburg (m)
10. Homestead Resort (Old Course), Hot Springs (c)

[Jonathan Cummings]

Joel,

It's Laurel Hill and it is a county course built next to the notorious Norton prison and an old Nike site.  Brian Kington was Love's lead at the project.  I've interviewed Brian and he's quite proud of his work as he should be.  LH is a good area public course but it would not break into the ranks of your list.

JC

[CJ Carder]

Lastly, how does Laurel Links rank among the top 10 in Virginia?

Virginia
1. Homestead Resort (Cascades), Hot Springs (No. 46 c)
2. Royal New Kent, Providence Forge (m)
3. Golden Horseshoe (Gold), Williamsburg (m)
4. Riverfront GC at Harbor View, Suffolk (m)
5. Homestead Resort (Lower Cascades), Hot Springs (c)
6. Mattaponi Springs, Ruther Glen (m)
7. Independence, Midlothian (m)
8. Bay Creek (Palmer), Cape Charles (m)
9. Kingsmill (River), Williamsburg (m)
10. Homestead Resort (Old Course), Hot Springs (c)

Joel,

Where did you get this list?  I'm just asking because I'm not sure I would agree with a couple of those as "Top 10" in Virginia and I certainly would have some questions about the order.  

Nevertheless, Laurel Hills is a good track.  I enjoyed it myself and have heard other people who really enjoy it as well.  That said, it would not fit in any Top 10 and would be debatable as a Top 15 inclusion in my opinion.  In addition to the courses you mentioned above, we haven't even talked about some of the private club variety (i.e. Kinloch, RTJ, CC of Virginia, Farmington).  If I were doing my own rankings, I think Laurel Hills would definitely be Top 25, but in Virginia, it's got a lot of stiff competition.

CJ

[Mike_Cirba]

Joel,

I am a bit out of my element discussing the changes Love made to Olympic because I'm not familiar with what was attempted, and I haven't played there in a number of years so I haven't seen the results of his efforts.   I can understand your frustration, however, and I do know a bit of your tastes so I can certainly understand where you're coming from, as well.

Laurel Hill in VA is a Doak Scale 5 or 6, which for affordable municipal golf near the capital is pretty darn good.   It does not compete with the larger VA resorts, nor does it try to, but as someone who like yourself has a great interest in municipal golf, I think it's the sort of place that we could use more of.

Thanks
Mike

[Jonathan Cummings]

Creighton Farms and Federal Hill would both be in the top 15 and waaaaay (Matt Wardianism  ) in front of Laurel.  JC

[CJ Carder]

Creighton Farms and Federal Hill would both be in the top 15 and waaaaay (Matt Wardianism  ) in front of Laurel.  JC

The Federal Club?  Isn't that the Palmer course near Richmond?  I wanted to play in the VSGA tournament there last fall but was too slow in getting my entry form in before they sold out.  Is it really a good course? 

[Joel_Stewart]

The list is off the Golfweek website.  I assume its the best public golf courses. 

I'm tired of thinking about this, for 5 years I have complained about Bill Love to the green chairs and twice to the presidents but to no avail.  This renovation stands for everything I am against and as someone told me the other day, history will show that this will be one of the great architecural blunders of all time.

Again, Bill Love is a very nice man and I can see how some people would be comfortable working with him.  The point is he is way out of his league on this project and he should continue on Laurel Links type golf courses.

Jonathan:  I've never heard of Brian Kington but I really have to laugh that Bill Love would have a lead person on any project.  Bill Love is a one man show.

Anybody look at the photos of what Silva has done at St. Louis.  Olympic was built in 1927 and will now look like a 1997 golf course.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Brian works for Bill and did the majority of the work at Laurel (maybe Bill was out your way during that time).  Love was a one-man show for years after breaking off from the Ault/Clark group.

CJ - Federal Hill is an excellent new course.  It's near course just a few miles from Kinloch. Vinny Giles visited FH and commented after driving around that he was never very fond of Palmer courses but Federal Hill was a noted exception.

JC

[J Sadowsky]

Worthington Manor is the best Ault/Clark course I've played, and it's a pretty decent track with a few interesting holes.

Laurel Hill (the Bill Love design) is great, my favorite public course in the DC area.  Golfweek has it 9th best public in Virginia:

Virginia
1. Homestead Resort (Cascades), Hot Springs (No. 45 c)
2. Highland Course at Primland, Meadows of Dan (m)*
3. Royal New Kent, Providence Forge (m)
4. Golden Horseshoe (Gold), Williamsburg (m)
5. Riverfront GC at Harbor View, Suffolk (m)
6. Mattaponi Springs, Ruther Glen (m)
7. Homestead Resort (Lower Cascades), Hot Springs (c)
8. Kingsmill (River), Williamsburg (m)
9. Laurel Hill, Lorton (m)*
10. Bay Creek GC (Nicklaus) Cape Charles (m)*

That ranking is well deserved, if you ask me.  A nice, rolling, minimalist design, with several interesting strategic options.  If it weren't for tee-to-fairway, it would be easily walkable.  The walk is tougher because a lot of drives go over valleys, creeks, etc.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played Oak Creek Tuesday.  It is very good.  The par fives may be the strength of the course.  You need to pay attention on all three shots.  He gives you a lot of options.  The greens and surrounds are imaginative.  There are some chipping and collection areas, and the bunkering is ok.

I really liked Laurel Hill.  It is excellent and worth of a top ten in VA.

[Doug Ralston]

Since we are a little off topic and talking Virginia publics, I wonder if anyone here has played the Sam Snead attributed course, Poplar Grove, in western Virginia? What did you think? I ask because I heard very good things and wondered if it was worth a visit.

Doug

[Matt_Ward]

I have played a wide range of layouts from Ault, Clark and Associates -- many of them from the mid-Atlantic area.

Mike is spot on -- many architects are now searching for work and as a result they have jumped into the restoration line of work without really understanding just what it is they are really supposed to do.

I am not familiar with what was done at Olympic but clearly someone at trhe club was impressed with the firm to hire them. No doubt the work produced is the handiwork of the firm but those who selected them are just as responsible.

The firm has done a good job on the public level for regular Joe Sixpack type golfers. Elevating them up the food chain to handle such an enormous task at Olympic or other type of comparable work may be beyond their skill level.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - I'm a little confused.  Are you equating Love with Ault/Clark??  Love worked for A/C in the 1980s.  He was hired by Eddie Ault in the mid-80s.  He only stayed with the firm for a few years leaving prior to 1990.  Love hasn't been associated with Ault/Clark for almost 20 years.  JC

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