Ross Flat Holes

[Ira Fishman]

Ross properly gets recognition for his use of elevation changes particularly for Green sites. But in thinking about the few courses I have played, he seemed to be able to get a lot out of flat areas by using turns in the fairway, angles of the green, and some awkward ridges/mounding around the greens.


PN 8, 9, and 14
MP 4, 7, 12, and 17
PH2 1-3 and 11
Hope Valley 3


Two questions:


1. Valid observation or too small a sample size?


2. I have played even fewer of Mr. Dye's courses, but from my reading here and elsewhere, he seems a master on flat areas. Did he learn any of his approaches to them from Ross?


Thanks,


Ira

[archie_struthers]

 


Gulfstream GC in southeast Florida is dead flat and has some neat holes . but its been forty years since I played there (OUCH)

[Jeff_Brauer]

My first reaction is that modern era gca nerds tend to analyze Ross designs more than Ross himself really did, based on reading his books, reviewing his plans at the Tufts Library, etc.

Pete often said he learned to finish the final sequence of a course with a combo of 3, 4, and 5 par holes, which he got from Ross.  Not sure how much else he may have gotten semi directly from him, but his style definitely took on a different look.


As to the question, having seen Ross green plans being replicated dozens of times on different courses, it is hard to think Ross did something different design-wise on flat green sites.  The only real case I can recall reading about from him was a green like Pinehurst 14(?) where he gouged out a swale in front of the green to provide fill to build it, which seemingly created a false illusion of distance.  On a hillier green site, it was easier for him to balance the earth within the green complex.


I have looked at a lot of Ross routings, and see the "fan shaped" holes on many, but it's hard to tell and I have never compared whether there was any real change on flat sites, although he could obviously route however he wanted if topo wasn't a consideration.

[Tim Martin]

5 Glens Falls

[Ronald Montesano]

Country Club of Buffalo has a number of flat holes, and the turns in the fairways are precisely what make them interesting until the green is reached.

[Tim Martin]

Country Club of Buffalo has a number of flat holes, and the turns in the fairways are precisely what make them interesting until the green is reached.

RoMo-It’s a terrific collection of holes with the quarry incorporated into the routing and a stunning finisher. Those flatter holes have very firm approaches allowing for some fun bounces with fairway woods and hybrids. One of my favorite Ross courses.

[Tom_Doak]

Ira:


If the sample size for Donald Ross courses is not big enough, then you're going to have a hard time analyzing anyone else's work!

[Ben Hollerbach]

Ira,


I'm having a hard time classifying MP 4, 7, and 12 as flat holes. Each of those either rise or fall more than 30 feet from tee to green, its in that elevation change that quite a bit of the hole's character is derived.

[Mike_Young]

Paul Cowley was involved with one:  Brunswick CC in Brunswick, Ga...18 completely flat holes...really good golf course, clubhouse and a  model for the future of golf....could play it everyday..

[Adam G]

7 at Charles River comes to mind. On the flattest part of a hilly property, Ross throws in a nearly 90 degree dogleg and a wicked green running away from you.

[Ronald Montesano]

1,2,4,5 are all par fours at CCBuffalo.


1 is a dogleg right, around a shrewdness of bunkers on the inside. Drive too far left gets you OOB. Green ever so slightly elevated (pronounced more thanks to slight valley of sin in front of putting surface.)


2 is mirror of 1: dogleg left, around an obstinacy of bunkers inside left. Green runs hard east (that is to say, front to back) despite being tilted westward. Always play one club less into green.


4 is a long, straight hole. Bunkers left and mounds right. Used to be a par five, but was reclassified, despite not losing any length. Green (like #2) runs hard eastward, so play one club less coming in.


5 runs parallel to and opposite number four. Ever so slight dogleg left. Large quarry sorlaccs the drive too far right and deep. A cloud of bunker left compels aim to the center-right. One of best five greens on course (others are 10, 13, 16, and 18.)


Actually, only 9 and 10 of remaining holes are flat. So, six holes in total (one third is a pretty good number.)

[Thomas Dai]

A question if I may - did Ross have any special drainage techniques when building courses on flat clay based terrain?
I’m thinking here of what MacKenzie and Koontz did at the Jockey Club in Arg.
Atb

[Ira Fishman]

Ira:


If the sample size for Donald Ross courses is not big enough, then you're going to have a hard time analyzing anyone else's work!

Sorry for lack of clarity: my personal sample size which is why I posed the questions for the more experienced here.


Thanks,


Ira

[Jeff_Brauer]

A question if I may - did Ross have any special drainage techniques when building courses on flat clay based terrain?
I’m thinking here of what MacKenzie and Koontz did at the Jockey Club in Arg.
Atb

Can't say for sure, but I have seen a lot of DR courses (many in FL, where it might be sandier) where the ground was just left as was and they hoped it would drain.  And, they didn't drain all that well.