[archie_struthers]

 


I've been waxing nostalgic during the holidays so circled back to my youth on this one. Given that the strength of the architecture hole by hole separates Pine Valley from almost every course there tend to be  different favorites for all of us. Talking architecture here not aesthetics or history.  For me it has changed over time and as of today today number four is the finest hole amongst 18 gems. The one caveat is that the bunkers on the top of the hill on the right would be removed , my question my rules LOL!

[JT Taylor]

I’ve always been a sucker for short par 4s........so the 8th is my favorite at PV.......the second shot there, from 80 yds with the ball below your feet and downhill to an elevated postage stamp green is potentially one of scariest shots on the property.....because you know the cost of a miss hit is likely a linen ball and a walk to the 9th tee scratching your head.  Sublime architecture!

[Tommy Williamsen]

I like a short par four and with two greens on 8 it is one of the best short fours in the country. I also like 17. Dialing the right distance up the hill can be a bit tricky.


I'd pick five but it too hard.

[MCirba]

Yes.

[Joe Bausch]

And for newer people to the site, I organized all the PV construction photos from the Sears collection at the Archive of American Gardens:


http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/archives/PineValleyconstructionphotos/index.html

[JMEvensky]

Always good when Archie starts waxing philosophical about PV.

#2 might be my favorite--I'll leave "best" to those more knowledgeable than I.

[mike_malone]

Archie,
I played Twisted Dune the other day and thought that 13 reminded me of 3 at Pine Valley so I’ll say 3 today. Talk to me tomorrow and I’ll say another hole.

[Phil Burr]

Hard to think of a better (and tougher) opener than #1.  The fall-offs around the green demand utmost precision right out of the gate.

[archie_struthers]

 


For my man Evensky 


For years #2 was my favorite and if you gave me one hole to take par before starting a round it would have to be #8. The green on two is one of the most imaginative greens I've ever seen and unless you've played it a hundred times in varied conditions you just cant imagine how interesting that green is even after the softening. #1 is very difficult with the green being so demanding in terms of distance control. Plus it's number one!

 
Here's why #4 is the best for me.  The tee shot is intriguing, even more so before the bunkers were inserted on the top of the hill. It's not always a driver and the aiming point is way right of where you would think. You drive it uphill in hopes of carrying a large flat spot and rolling to the bottom of the hill on the end of the fairway. There is a center line bunker that is pretty nondescript but marks the end of the fairway. If you hit it a little left you catch a downhill lie , if you hit it perfect the 155 yard second shot is hard to spin given the cant of the fairway.  Pull it a snit and it runs out into a bunker, and right can catch the fairly new bunkers (Fazio) or if it's like one of mine can find what used to be Cy Eastlack's back yard.


The second shot is so fun for so many people. If you leave it on top it's a rescue or some sort of wood but it's what Crump supposedly wanted all along. If you drive it farther its almost too close in that the shot is harder to visualize.  The  knock down eight iron is kind of a lost art.  The green looks simple but requires lots of knowledge of the pace to get a chip or putt close. It falls off a lot from front to back and right to left though it's not visually obvious.


If you ever see Pine Valley at warp speed this hole is the trickiest and most fun for me!

[Tim_Weiman]

And for newer people to the site, I organized all the PV construction photos from the Sears collection at the Archive of American Gardens:


http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/archives/PineValleyconstructionphotos/index.html

Archie & Joe,


My choice would be #13 especially if the pin is on the far left side of the green and my drive left me with a hook lie. Quite the test courage and judgment!


Thanks to Joe for posting the Sears construction pictures. Those are awesome.


Now we just need one of you guys to encourage a re-print of “Crump’s Dream”. The Shelley and Finegan books are in my golf architecture book collection, but I have no doubt many here would welcome being able to purchase a copy of “Crump’s Dream”.

[Phil Burr]

Archie, I appreciate what you said about #4.  It reflects the joy of blind shots, when you’re walking up the hill waiting to see if your well-aimed tee shot leaves you on top of the hill, with the ball above or below your feet, on a sharp downhill slope calling for the knock-down 8 iron you describe, or if you’ve gotten a bad bounce and are in the surrounding junk.


What I love about #1 is that it’s not the gentle handshake so often lauded, but instead says “your golf game is going to undergo a very stern test today”, without any pretense.

[archie_struthers]

 


Phil , you are so right about numero uno!  I think it's an extremely difficult hole. My strategy would always be to play super aggressive on the tee shot and cut the corner as close as you dare. But your description of walking to the top of the hill  on #4 to see just how good a tee shot you hit says it all. It's all about the anticipation. Then comes that aforementioned second shot.

[Scott Warren]

All I could confidently say is that it’s probably not 7, 9, 12 or 14. The other 14 I could read the case for and be okay with it.


I have a hard time deciding between 8 and 13, because they both combine fantastic terrain and natural features with the kind of golf that likely has you die a slow death if you select the wrong type of shot/club, but also salvage a result from the wrong spot if you’re good enough.

[Tim Martin]

Archie-I love 15 and can’t think of a better three shot hole. The stretch of 15-18 provides an incredible finish.

[Tom_Doak]

I'd pick five but it too hard.

I have a new client, and when I asked his favorite par-3 he said the 5th at Pine Valley, so I'm going to try and build a version of it for him.  I think I've found a really good spot for it where we can come pretty close.  It will be interesting to see how steep he wants the green to be!


Personally, I'd pick 13 if I had to take just one hole at PV.  It always gets left off those eclectic lists because of 13 at Augusta or one of the many other great 13th holes.

[Mike_Trenham]

I'd pick five but it too hard.

Personally, I'd pick 13 if I had to take just one hole at PV.  It always gets left off those eclectic lists because of 13 at Augusta or one of the many other great 13th holes.

I always say this is the widest narrow fairway in golf.  The place you need to be is only about 10 yards wide down the right but not too far right.


IIRC Scott Verplank during the 1985 Walker Cup did not see what the big deal was about the 13th hole, described it along the lines of a long iron and a six iron to a large green.  Too me that always said more about the game of golf at the highest level than it did about this hole.


#1 is my favorite, while it’s tough you can get an easy bogey or one putt par if you play it conservatively.  I don’t see that as an option on many of the other holes.

[archie_struthers]

 


Obviously Pine Valley is great , so many fabulous holes. #13 is beautiful and as a caddie you get your first downhill walk in a while and #14 has a great water fountain on the tee. However, just think the angle on the tee shot on four , the different lies you can get within a forty yard radius and that fade away green are special.


The green on 13 isn't as difficult as #4 in that there is more margin for error on the shot and don't think it's as sophisticated as to strategy, but as stated there are lots of hole  to choose from. My favorite differs from my best just fyi

[Mark Chaplin]

On my first visit to Pine Valley our member host had a 7’ down hill cross hill putt at the back of the 5th. As he stood over the putt his caddie said “guests who want to come back usually give these” after a couple of seconds we said “good” and the member who hadn’t moved an inch leant straight down picked the ball up and walked off. It was clearly a well used trick as the return putt would have been at least twice as long.


The 8th is one of my favourite holes on the planet, even if you could place the tee shot exactly where you want you are left with one of the most exacting pitches possible. A 5 whilst disappointing is no disaster. 


Archie I once fluked a drive down the right on 4, far too close to the trees and bunkers, caddie signalled OK but I was shocked to find the ball in the centre of the fairway a yard from the rough and cross bunkers.

[Steve Lapper]

On a frigid, blustery day here in NJ, I'm giving serious thought to this question.


With eighteen great holes and everyone's favorite an exercise in subjectivity, it's a tough, if not impossible task to single out one hole that is "best" or superior to the other seventeen.


For me, #15 is my nomination. Why? Because it is undeniably one of the world's premier par 5's. Why? Few, if any other par 5's provide the strategic interest values on every shot, protect itself from pure distance and promise a scoring disaster if a player loses even an iota of focus. 


 The tee shot is a pure forced carry of probably 170-190yds, albeit to the widest portion of a fairway that begins it narrowing funneling from there. The hard cant of this fairway complicates things. A shrewd player, having hit a good drive, needs to hug the left side where sequential pit bunkers and overhanging branches promise to produce at least a bogey or more. A well-struck second shot will tumble down to the right third of fairway (worse farther right is yet more stifling bunkers, rough and some branches) leaving an awkward off-cant semi-blind green that is tilted heavily left-to-right and back to front. Any approach coming up short will find itself rolling back and off to the right 20-30 yds. Long or hard left is even worse. Good luck holding that green coming from those places under usual conditions. Simply put, it's a demanding penal hole, yet eminently satisfying when played smartly.


 The hole is visually very attractive and seductively in front of you. Distance must be measured equally with accuracy. There is no room to "just bang it as hard as possible." It's an unrelenting, yet beautiful test.

[archie_struthers]

 


Steve makes a great case, but perhaps #15 might be a bit too difficult for it to be the best hole.

[Tim Martin]

On a frigid, blustery day here in NJ, I'm giving serious thought to this question.


With 18 great holes and everyone's favorite an exercise in subjectivity, it's a tough, if not impossible task to single out one hole that is "best" or superior to the other 17.


For me, #15 is my nomination. Why? Because it is undeniably one of the world's premier par 5's. Why? Few, if any other par 5's provide the strategic interest values on every shot, protect itself from pure distance and promise a scoring disaster if a player loses even an iota of focus. 


 The tee shot is a pure forced carry of probably 170-190yds, albeit to the widest portion of a fairway that begins it narrowing funneling from there. The hard cant of this fairway complicates things. A shrewd player, having hit a good drive, needs to hug the left side where sequential pit bunkers and overhanging branches promise to produce at least a bogey or more. A well-struck second shot will tumble down to the right third of fairway (worse farther right is yet more stifling bunkers, rough and some branches) leaving an awkward off-cant semi-blind green that is tilted heavily left-to-right and back to front. Any approach coming up short will find itself rolling back and off to the right 20-30 yds. Long or hard left is even worse. Good luck holding that green coming from those places under usual conditions. Simply put, it's a demanding penal hole, yet eminently satisfying when played smartly.


 The hole is attractive and seductively in front of you. Distance must be measured equally with accuracy. There is no room to "just bang it as hard as possible." It's an unrelenting, yet beautiful test.

Steve-That’s a great description of the hole. For me a par on this hole would be just as valuable from a satisfaction standpoint as any of the par fours.

[Steve Lapper]

Steve makes a great case, but perhaps #15 might be a bit too difficult for it to be the best hole.

Archie,


  I went with your rules: architecture! No doubt, 15 is difficult, but no one whose played PV multiple times (and you likely the most of all the GCA posters) could possibly argue that there are "easy," or "non-difficult" holes out there. Some are easier to score on with one or two good shots, but all demand reasonable precision and distance off the tee, with vastly more exactitude demanded on any approach. Y


  Your choice of #4 is a perfect example of the puckering that the course makes you do as you get closer to every hole. Only its large green and relatively fewer pit hazards close to it give it the aura of being "easier."


  As I said, it's difficult, if not impossible task and all personal. Cheers! 

[Pat Burke]

I first saw PV walking the final round of the Crump Cup when my brother played the final against Sigel.


When i saw the approach to number 2 I just couldn’t believe it. The. I saw the green


I’m still amazed by it


I never saw 8 with the second green. But I thought it was amazing too

[William_G]

all the holes are great at PV, there is not one to single out as the best as it is a symphony of golf for those that can golf their ball
thanks

[Michael Felton]

On a frigid, blustery day here in NJ, I'm giving serious thought to this question.


With eighteen great holes and everyone's favorite an exercise in subjectivity, it's a tough, if not impossible task to single out one hole that is "best" or superior to the other seventeen.


For me, #15 is my nomination. Why? Because it is undeniably one of the world's premier par 5's. Why? Few, if any other par 5's provide the strategic interest values on every shot, protect itself from pure distance and promise a scoring disaster if a player loses even an iota of focus. 


 The tee shot is a pure forced carry of probably 170-190yds, albeit to the widest portion of a fairway that begins it narrowing funneling from there. The hard cant of this fairway complicates things. A shrewd player, having hit a good drive, needs to hug the left side where sequential pit bunkers and overhanging branches promise to produce at least a bogey or more. A well-struck second shot will tumble down to the right third of fairway (worse farther right is yet more stifling bunkers, rough and some branches) leaving an awkward off-cant semi-blind green that is tilted heavily left-to-right and back to front. Any approach coming up short will find itself rolling back and off to the right 20-30 yds. Long or hard left is even worse. Good luck holding that green coming from those places under usual conditions. Simply put, it's a demanding penal hole, yet eminently satisfying when played smartly.


 The hole is visually very attractive and seductively in front of you. Distance must be measured equally with accuracy. There is no room to "just bang it as hard as possible." It's an unrelenting, yet beautiful test.

My dad, on his (and my) first round there hit three 5 woods and a 7 iron on the green (he likes to say he "reduced it to three 5 woods and a 7 iron"). He wound up about 40 feet away from the hole above it. The caddie walked over and pointed at a spot about 6 feet from his ball and perpendicular to where the hole was and said "putt like the hole is here", so my dad, with his back to the hole, hits a 6 foot sideways putt and the ball takes the break, trundles down the hill and dropped in the hole for a 5. Caddie earned his tip right then and there!


Great hole! I think my favourite though is #8. Most people see 300 yard par 4 and think "oo, birdie chance!" 8 is technically a birdie chance, since if you hit the right level of the green, you've probably got less than 10 feet left to go. I think it was Dan Jenkins who said something along the lines of "the green is the size of a dinner plate. Actually, I exaggerate. It's more like the size of an ashtray".

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