Which great old courses were the most Stubborn, and why?

[Sean_A]

David


That's the thing, I really don't think you have the same arms war that you have in the US. There is no keeping up with the Jones syndrome which is evidenced by an awful lot of older courses over here that are largely untouched. Of course after 100 odd years you get bunkers having been moved about and the odd green being moved for whatever reason but it's generally for very good reason; usually against the wishes of a sizeable section of the membership; and never in my memory to keep up with work done elsewhere.


Niall

I believe a significant percentage of GB&I work is for two main reasons. Hosting R&A events and trying to attract more visitors, which in effect is competing with the neighbours and often times chasing rankings. Sometimes competing with the neighbours coincides with good environmental and agronomic practices.

Happy Hockey

On the flip side to Niall’s point, GB&I courses don’t have the same connection with their architectural heritage and are often times quicker to make piecemeal changes that are not in keeping.


US courses do full on renovations more often. But GB&I sometimes die by a thousand cuts.

Very true. So many links have slowly removed character.

So to answer Pietro's question 😎, I think North Berwick and Prestwick have done fairly well in retaining the spirit of the their unusual designs.

Happy Hockey

[Mark_Fine]

I think the worst American influence on the GB&I courses is conditioning.  I remember playing Narin years ago and it was soft and green    Who wants to play a soft green links course?  I asked and they said Americans like green grass    I have also told the story here about playing Royal Birkdale years ago before The Open.  I asked the member who was a good friend what they did to get the course ready for the championship?  He looked at me funny and said, “they put up some stands, maybe toss a little seed on some spots, open up the back tees, and tell the boys to come in and have a go.”  My how that has changed and so have some of the courses as when maintenance changes it seems to lead to other architectural changes as well.  You can still find some courses that seem to embrace their history and haven’t tried to cater with pristine manicured maintenance to Americans (Carne comes to mind) but they seem fewer and father between.


Note:  I saw a new word in this thread - “spirit”. Are we now content to recapture the spirit of original architectural features?  How is that different than trying to recapture “original design intent”?  And is one or the other still restoration? 

[Sean_A]

I think the worst American influence on the GB&I courses is conditioning.  I remember playing Narin years ago and it was soft and green    Who wants to play a soft green links course?  I asked and they said Americans like green grass    I have also told the story here about playing Royal Birkdale years ago before The Open.  I asked the member who was a good friend what they did to get the course ready for the championship?  He looked at me funny and said, “they put up some stands, maybe toss a little seed on some spots, open up the back tees, and tell the boys to come in and have a go.”  My how that has changed and so have some of the courses as when maintenance changes it seems to lead to other architectural changes as well.  You can still find some courses that seem to embrace their history and haven’t tried to cater with pristine manicured maintenance to Americans (Carne comes to mind) but they seem fewer and father between.

Note:  I saw a new word in this thread - “spirit”. Are we now content to recapture the spirit of original architectural features?  How is that different than trying to recapture “original design intent”?  And is one or the other still restoration?

Mark


My use of the word "spirit" meant restoring the hazard in the same spot and close to the orginal dimensions & style. Its impossible to properly restore the bunker.  Restoring archie's intent suggests to me that an archie can move hazards & tees to match the current equipment and alter green slopes to better match green speeds. This to me is a very different proposition. Plus, every archie can interepret the original intent differently.  I think this is slippery territory and nothing close to restroration. Okay, spirit may not be the best word for what I mean, but tell me the better word and I will use it  .


Happy Hockey

[JJShanley]

I played one of Ran's 147 as a visitor, and ended up getting pairing with some members. I asked one of the group how the club protected its architectural heritage. He replied: "We don't admit troublemakers."

[Mark_Fine]

Sean,
Your definition of trying to restore both spirit and design intent makes sense.  However, both terms are subject to interpretation.  As you know, many early architects anticipated that the game would change and their courses would need to change with them.  If you study what these architects wrote on the subject you would agree.  Many tried to build elasticity into their designs so their courses could be stretched out in the future to accommodate change.  The simplest least intrusive way to accommodate what they wanted with their courses was to alter holes with new tees.  If Flynn or Ross for example wanted the expert player to hit a long iron second and they were now hitting a wedge, they had hoped their built in elasticity could allow for the adjustment.  That is one example of trying to restore design intent.  Sometimes that built in elasticity (extra property) has been sold off or is no longer there or sufficient.  That is when things get more complicated.  But you are right it comes down to someone or some architect making assumptions.  Such is the nature of dealing with a live playing field and a changing game.  But one thing is clear, most of the golden age architects knew their courses would have to adapt to a changing game and many changed their own designs over time themselves.  I doubt any of them thought their own last change would be the final one 


If Gordon came back to a course he originally designed like the one that I am working on now and dropped a ball on the back of the one green and watched it roll off the front, what would he think/do?   Would he laugh? Would he say WTF?  Would he tell the super to replant the green with blue grass and cut it to 1/2”?  Would he just shake his head and walk away? There is an old saying, “the only time a decision is required is when the answer is not obvious”.  Sometimes in GCA a decision is required. 

[Niall C]

Mark


I have to say you are many many years out of date regarding links being greened up, if it were even a wide spread movement. These days clubs with links courses strive for firm and fast, perhaps to the detriment of the "conditioning". There has also been a move over the last 10 to 20 years for gorse, whin and tree removal from links courses. Unfortunately there hasn't really been an equivalent movement in tree removal on inland courses as far as I can see.


Niall

[Mark_Fine]

Nial,
It was a long time ago when I played Narin.  If you are saying that many of the courses over there are not trying to placate the American visitors then thumbs up!  We often push for firm and fast over here too but tend to also strive for pristine   I like courses that are rough around the edges. 

[Niall C]

On the flip side to Niall’s point, GB&I courses don’t have the same connection with their architectural heritage and are often times quicker to make piecemeal changes that are not in keeping.


US courses do full on renovations more often. But GB&I sometimes die by a thousand cuts.

Ally,


I certainly agree that UK clubs don't really have the same regard for their heritage that some US clubs do, and certainly changes are more evolutionary rather than wholesale. However I'd argue there would be very few of the courses that weren't actually greatly improved by the thousand cuts as you call them.


Niall

[Niall C]

Nial,
It was a long time ago when I played Narin.  If you are saying that many of the courses over there are not trying to placate the American visitors then thumbs up!  We often push for firm and fast over here too but tend to also strive for pristine   I like courses that are rough around the edges.

Oh they are trying to placate the US visitors. They have all shoved their prices up to make you guys feel at home 


Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Mark,


There was a trend a number of years ago with some links courses to embrace rather than eradicate rye grasses.


As we all know, fescue is (rightly) king again. So we’ve gone from emerald green to lighter green / brown.

[Niall C]

Very true. So many links have slowly removed character.

So to answer Pietro's question 😎, I think North Berwick and Prestwick have done fairly well in retaining the spirit of the their unusual designs.

Happy Hockey

Sean


I wonder if you are conflating the sense of place with the design. NB and Prestwick are two courses that have gone through radical changes since they were first laid out.


Niall

[Sean_A]

Very true. So many links have slowly removed character.

So to answer Pietro's question , I think North Berwick and Prestwick have done fairly well in retaining the spirit of the their unusual designs.

Happy Hockey

Sean


I wonder if you are conflating the sense of place with the design. NB and Prestwick are two courses that have gone through radical changes since they were first laid out.


Niall

Both courses are the final product of the Golden Age and haven't changed all that much in nearly 100 years. I suspect we are lucky that so much of the pre Golden Age aspects survived. The Golden Age archies were either too smart not to carry forward this design legacy or smart enough to realize that even if they didn't admire these holes their place should remain secure.

Ciao

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Would Askernish on South Uist in the Outer Hebrides of Scotland qualify?
Originally an Old Tom Morris, gone fallow during WW1 and then restored. My understanding is that all they did was mow grass.
Tom Doak, you are a member there, comments please.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Malcolm,


Askernish is a new course. There is very little Old Tom there.... But in 100 years, it should qualify. Doubt the course will ever get changed much.

[Mike_Trenham]

Mike,
I can't think of too many of the GAP golden age courses that haven't been changed too much especially the better ones.  There is an old Tillinghast design from 1922 called Irem Temple that might qualify but not even sure about that one.

How about Merion West?  I don’t know of many major changes other that to fairways for the 2013 US Open practice area.   


I do hear of rumblings that the club is talking about a large investment into this part of the property.

[Tim Martin]

Mike,
I can't think of too many of the GAP golden age courses that haven't been changed too much especially the better ones.  There is an old Tillinghast design from 1922 called Irem Temple that might qualify but not even sure about that one.

How about Merion West?  I don’t know of many major changes other that to fairways for the 2013 US Open practice area.   


I do hear of rumblings that the club is talking about a large investment into this part of the property.

Mike-I hope they leave the West clubhouse as is.

[Ira Fishman]

I know that they have done some in house bunker work, but isn't Cypress Point very close to how it has always been?


Ira

[Thomas Dai]

Nice recent piece by Mike Clayton in GCA magazine on related themes -
https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/custodians-of-the-course
Atb

[Mark_Fine]

Thomas,
That is a great article by Mike.  I have already forwarded it on to others who will enjoy reading it and benefit.  Thanks for posting.

[Tim_Weiman]

Nial,
It was a long time ago when I played Narin.  If you are saying that many of the courses over there are not trying to placate the American visitors then thumbs up!  We often push for firm and fast over here too but tend to also strive for pristine   I like courses that are rough around the edges.

Mark,


Rough around the edges? Ballybunion’s Cashen, which I love, certainly had that base covered when it first opened!

[Mark_Fine]

Tim,
As you know, many courses spend a ton of maintenance money maintaining areas that are mostly out of play (areas around the edges).  I tend to feel those areas don’t need to be pristine and money can and should be spent elsewhere if not spent at all.  I think we are saying the same thing.

[Mike_Young]

IMHO Holston Hills is my all time favorite Donald Ross course. And it is stubborn. I am sure there are many other places that were "stubborn" but a few that stand out to me are Wequetonsing and Harbor Point in Harbor Springs Michigan as well as Belvedere in Charlevoix, Michigan.
Holston Hills is good because it had good advice from consulting archie.  I saw where TD mentioned the reason was they had no money for improvements.  That may be but so often the courses today are just like second and third generation businesses...the kids on the board today may have no issue spending millions that "dad" would have never spent. 
A Ross course I have been a member of for years was "stubborn for 75-80 years until some of the "sons" in charge today realized that some guy named "Ross" ( whom they had no clue who he was" had built it.  And at that point they contact the DRS fanclub thing and it is off to the races.   I continue to see more old courses hurt by too much money than too little...today we have 10 million debt..and will spend more thanks to 20 handicappers taking trip to Keiser places and reading enough to be dangerous...

and let's don't forget the clubhouse....these monstrocities have strangled many of the fine old clubs..many clubs should have been more stubborn there also..the new wave of consultants preach "family/family /family"...as a membership fans out further and further from the club than the original membership then they are not as apt to use the clubhouse other than for golf related meals etc....why would you when you can't drink and drive and there are local restaurants...

[Chris Hughes]

A Ross course I have been a member of for years was "stubborn" for 75-80 years...


...today we have 10 million debt.

and let's don't forget the clubhouse....these monstrocities have strangled many of the fine old clubs.


many clubs should have been more stubborn there also...the new wave of consultants preach "family/family /family"...


...as a membership fans out further and further from the club than the original membership then they are not as apt to use the clubhouse other than for golf related meals etc....why would you when you can't drink and drive and there are local restaurants...

How is it working out with the $10M in debt?  Out of curiosity, what's the debt/revenues ratio?


Cheers...

[Mike Hendren]

Fortunately Holston Hills was on the “wrong” side of town. Old money lived in near western Knoxville near their more exclusive Cherokee CC.  The city continued to expand west to and beyond Fox Den CC.  The only reason to head east was to go to the old Bill Myers baseball stadium or the zoo. 


As tastes reverted to classic golf course architecture and Donald J. Ross’ reputation revived HH was rediscovered.  The neighborhood followed as the quaint cottages were affordable and more desirable than the McMansions out west where the commute had become intolerable. 


Today a classic course in a classic neighborhood.  Hands down the best classic course in the Volunteer State.

[Chris Hughes]

Fortunately Holston Hills was on the “wrong” side of town. Old money lived in near western Knoxville near their more exclusive Cherokee CC.  The city continued to expand west to and beyond Fox Den CC.  The only reason to head east was to go to the old Bill Myers baseball stadium or the zoo. 


As tastes reverted to classic golf course architecture and Donald J. Ross’ reputation revived HH was rediscovered.  The neighborhood followed as the quaint cottages were affordable and more desirable than the McMansions out west where the commute had become intolerable. 


Today a classic course in a classic neighborhood.  Hands down the best classic course in the Volunteer State.

I've only heard great things about the golf course -- that said, what's the status of the current ownership structure of the club?