Green contour softening

[Mark_Fine]

It is those sharpe transitions you want to avoid especially in the approach and that is why you need quite a large area of disturbance around the green to get those areas/edges to bleed softly into the existing grade. 


I am finding many private clubs are learning not to expect “member/guest” speeds and conditions all year round.  They are starting to understand that to do that is not only expensive but risky.  But they still like fast and true greens, faster than most of these old classic greens were designed for.  An old green that had 12-15 hole locations at a 5-6 green speed might only have 2-3 when that green is rolling at 8-9. 

[Ira Fishman]

Let me offer a simple solution to the Stimp Wars: change the device so that what now is an 8-9 scores as a 13-14. Almost no players would catch on, and everyone would get used to it anyway.


Ira

[Mark_Fine]

Does anyone know if the green contours were changed or softened at Winged Foot which we all know has a fantastic set of greens. 


By the way, I totally agree with what Jim said about greens evolving over time which is also why it is near impossible to restore an old green to its original contours. 

[Tom_Doak]

Does anyone know if the green contours were changed or softened at Winged Foot which we all know has a fantastic set of greens. 
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I know that at least a couple of the greens on the East course were softened when they were done.  I presume the same is true for the West course, but I don't know the details.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Does anyone know if the green contours were changed or softened at Winged Foot which we all know has a fantastic set of greens. 




I know that at least a couple of the greens on the East course were softened when they were done.  I presume the same is true for the West course, but I don't know the details.


Mark--
I am virtually sure that the 10th green on West was softened prior to the 1974 Open and at least two other times since then as well.  My guess is that the greens prior to the early 70's softening ran about 7' on a stimp.  Do not know about other greens but would be surprised if only #10 was softened .

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks Tom and Paul.  My guess is that some were softened on the West in this latest round of work but just wasn't sure.


This is an example of something we have debated and often disagreed about on this site - restoring "design intent".  If Gordon for example, pitched a green from back to front that had 7-8% slope and it rolled at 5 at the time he designed it, are you restoring "design intent" if you soften that green to 3-4% and it now rolls at 8 or 9 with the new grasses that are on it?  I say you are at least trying to restore original design intent, but some say you are not. If you are doing restoration, I happen to think this is part of it though as I stated, I rarely ever recommend rebuilding entire greens (it is a last resort) even if it means the greens are not playing as they once were which we all know they are not just due to green speeds and maintenance. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mark,


If that is what you are trying to do, I would consult Jerry Lemons Green Slope Guide (he has two - one in % one in degrees, so be careful!) since it has the maximum slope for almost any green speed.  Take the maximum slope at 5, say, and then the maximum slope at 10, and you could probably get pretty close to the design results from the reduced slope. 

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks Jeff.  I have that slope guide and have found it quite helpful.  It is on-line if anyone is interested in seeing it. 

[Forrest Richardson]

A green with more contour than is "reasonable" can also be softened by making the green larger. What I mean by this, is that you can add less severe areas at front, edges and back...thus creating cup areas that might allow preservation of some or all gradients within the "original green". This does not work always, but I have used it is many cases to create interesting greens, but with areas to allow setting cups.

[Mark_Fine]

Forrest,
I agree and stated the same in my list of recommendations to consider before softening the original green surface.  We have done this on many courses and it can be a viable option. 


We are not doing much right now with the current one I talked about at the start of this thread as it is sitting under a half foot or more of snow.  This one will likely have to wait till the spring thaw to address 

[Forrest Richardson]

Good example: No. 13 at Berkeley CC where you and I brought the front-right well down and into the toe of the hillside, creating a long area of 2-percent that is now one of their favorite cup locations.

[Mark_Fine]

Forrest,
Yes that is a great example and the green turned out awesome.  I like that area as well as it is well away from the property boundary on the left which is another issue that sometimes becomes a challenge on older courses that have had homes encroach.