Champions, US Women's Open

[Matt_Cohn]

It's a bit strange to get to Sunday of a major with zero mention of the host course on this site.


It looks...nice if you like enormous greens? It also looks like it kind of has the same par-3 three times. Any thoughts?

[Ronald Montesano]

Jack Burke...touring pro...had an idea of what he wanted...prolly told his architect "build this."


And...play suspended for day.

[Lou_Duran]

Two courses which would not gain much love on this site, but a club which has as strong of a competitive membership as any.  If you like playing golf and developing your game, i.e. if keeping score is important to you, Champions is a great club.  Listening to Jackie's stories is worth the price of admission.  Seeing him walking the range watching his members is really awesome.  He expects his members to be serious about their game, always playing for enough money that they're not lackadaisical over a shot.

[Ran Morrissett]

I am in the midst of writing a profile on Harbour Town whose greens average in the 3,850 square foot range. That's right - the greens at Champions average more ~ 2.5 times in size. 


Both sets of greens work for their respective courses and IT HELPS EXPLAIN WHY THE STUDY OF GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE NEVER GETS BORING.


Pity about the rain/weather.

[JMEvensky]

Two courses which would not gain much love on this site, but a club which has as strong of a competitive membership as any.  If you like playing golf and developing your game, i.e. if keeping score is important to you, Champions is a great club.  Listening to Jackie's stories is worth the price of admission.  Seeing him walking the range watching his members is really awesome.  He expects his members to be serious about their game, always playing for enough money that they're not lackadaisical over a shot.

Played the CC course once over 40 years ago and that's exactly my recollection. That membership takes playing very seriously.

[Rob Marshall]

I played both courses probably 30 years ago when a buddy was a member. A couple of things that stuck in my mind:

The locker room was the first I had ever seen with a bar in the middle of it.

After you played you turned in your card and the locker room attendants made the equitable stroke adjustments. At my club we just wrote the score in a book.

There were no push carts. You took a cart or carried your clubs. They did have a few caddies.

My buddy said that if Jackie saw you take a gimme he would yell at you.

The greens were huge. Probably the largest on any course I had played. Jackie was old school. There were no pin indicators. The flags were all the same color.

On the first hole I walk over to a sprinkler head to get the yardage to the center. There were no numbers just a letter "A". I ask my buddy what does A mean? He pulls a book out of his back pocket looks up hole 1, sprinkler A, and gives me the yardage. None of the heads had yards, just letters so you had to buy the book. Everyone had one and then got it laminated because they would fall apart in the summer heat.

It was a golf club. No pool no tennis. Great atmosphere for someone like me that just loves golf.

[Lou_Duran]

Both sets of greens work for their respective courses and IT HELPS EXPLAIN WHY THE STUDY OF GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE NEVER GETS BORING.

or exhaustible.


As to the weather, seems like every trip to Houston involves some rain.  The first time I played Cypress Creek I was soaked by a brief storm in late afternoon, followed by sunshine.  One of the coolest memories was of a young boy walking to one of the ponds and catching two or three 3-5 pound largemouth bass while I played nearby. 

[SL_Solow]

Jackie Burke Jr. wrote a wonderful book, "It's Only A Game" in which he wrote about almost every aspect of golf.  His swing thoughts and putting insights are very interesting.  Particularly interesting to me was his philosophy about clubs.  A good read which I come back to.

[Tom_Doak]

Two courses which would not gain much love on this site, but a club which has as strong of a competitive membership as any.  If you like playing golf and developing your game, i.e. if keeping score is important to you, Champions is a great club.  Listening to Jackie's stories is worth the price of admission.  Seeing him walking the range watching his members is really awesome.  He expects his members to be serious about their game, always playing for enough money that they're not lackadaisical over a shot.

Lou:


I don't know anyone who doesn't think Jackie Burke is a great person, and Champions a great club, although your description of the club sounds like it would be torture for me. 


I am curious though, if you think that the golf course in any way reflects the ethos of the club.  No one on this thread has really said anything about the golf course so far, except for Ran.  [And giant greens are generally not what good players ask for.] 


The course was long and difficult back when that was still a thing, but there's no way it would be for scratch players now, is there?

[Rob Marshall]

I love this quote from Jackie. " I had a sports psychologist, his name was Jack Daniels and he was waiting for me in the bar after every round."

[Jeff Spittel]

I play there every once in a while. The few members I know are straight out of central casting for Champions - they are younger guys who can really play. 


The course is no pushover for them and they generally seem to be very proud of it. Even in hot, dry weather, there are several demanding driving holes from the tips, and the greens are both enormous and very closely protected. There are some really difficult par fours - if you make a marginal swing off the tee at 1, 6, 7, 10, 11, 17 or 18, your next shot is usually either a chip out or a dumb idea.   


It's a bit of a shame that they couldn't hold the Open during the summer. The renovation they did a few years back has dramatically enhanced the turf conditioning, and I think the course is more interesting when it's bouncy.             

[Mike_Clayton]

This from Mark McCormack's annual. The 1969 US Open


One round - not sure which one - and the clubs Arnold Palmer hit into the greens


1 435Y 7 Iron
2 444 6i
3 379 wedge
4 193 3i
5 451 4 wood
6 418 5i
7 417 2i
8 180 5i 
9 505 3 wood


10 448 5i
11 450 5i
12 213 3i
13 544 3 wood
14 430 3I
15 418 5i
16 418 5i
17 436 3i
18 431 4i


Deane Beman - who was second - on the same day.
1 4 wood
2 2 iron
3 9 iron
4 4 wood
5 3 wood
6 3 iron
7 3 wood
8 4 iron
9 3 wood


10 4 wood
11 4 wood
12 2 iron
13 3 wood
14 4 wood
15 2 iron
16 4 iron
17 3 wood
18 3 wood.


Back when men were men and they played real golf!
Beman's performance might be the most under-appreciated ever in a major championship.


And, seriously for Dustin Johnson, Brooks or Bryson to be hitting the clubs Palmer was using the course would have to be almost 9000 yards.
What's a standard driver, 4 iron hole for them? 550Y?

[David_Tepper]

Hogan vs. Snead, Shell's World of Golf at Champions, 1965:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaSBQGsnrdM

WRONG! Filmed at Houston CC.

[mike_beene]

It seems like the ponds by the greens are all left of the green except for the one by 6. Maybe 6 ponds left and one right. Not sure who that benefits. While the greens are huge, they are not just big circles but have traps or ponds in play often.
I hate lift clean and place but the mud balls are a crap shoot.
Is this the flattest championship type course? It is growing on me as I watch this week.

[Steve Lang]

  Really a shame they couldn't have played in October or November, was perfect weather this fall... like that experienced for Houston Open at Memorial Park


I've only played Cypress a couple of times and toured the Jackrabbit once, been to a couple Tour Championships there...  My first Cypress take-away metaphoric thought was its like a Wendy's Triple Burger Meal, Large drink, Frosty dessert... can be hard to handle and digest unless you're focused and hungry      it looks better now on tv than i last remember it.   Not surprised the USGA setup left some Ladies frustrated in the wet long conditions.


ps.. I don't know about the ethos there other than testosterone test stories from the annual competition between the two wings of the locker room, but there was a statistical look at top handicap player sets at "players clubs" I saw reported once and The Woodlands CC ranked better than Champions GC in that regard, that really stuck in their craw at the time... I guess if you only have 1 or 2 courses to play, I guess ya should get pretty good at them   


pss I also seem to remember reading about how the swimming pool there was put in to be backup water supply to meet building - fire code / insurance coverage requirements for the restaurant (which was quite good).  Got to admire that ...

[Tom_Doak]

And, seriously for Dustin Johnson, Brooks or Bryson to be hitting the clubs Palmer was using the course would have to be almost 9000 yards.
What's a standard driver, 4 iron hole for them? 550Y?

Maybe more for DJ.  I watched him on a hole at Memorial Park with a 305 yard carry over water and he cleared it by 20 yards.

[Mike_Clayton]

And, seriously for Dustin Johnson, Brooks or Bryson to be hitting the clubs Palmer was using the course would have to be almost 9000 yards.
What's a standard driver, 4 iron hole for them? 550Y?

Maybe more for DJ.  I watched him on a hole at Memorial Park with a 305 yard carry over water and he cleared it by 20 yards.

305 is the new 270 - nothing for the longer drivers now.

[Thomas Dai]

This from Mark McCormack's annual. The 1969 US Open
One round - not sure which one - and the clubs Arnold Palmer hit into the greens
1 435Y 7 Iron
2 444 6i
3 379 wedge
4 193 3i
5 451 4 wood
6 418 5i
7 417 2i
8 180 5i 
9 505 3 wood
10 448 5i
11 450 5i
12 213 3i
13 544 3 wood
14 430 3I
15 418 5i
16 418 5i
17 436 3i
18 431 4i


Deane Beman - who was second - on the same day.
1 4 wood
2 2 iron
3 9 iron
4 4 wood
5 3 wood
6 3 iron
7 3 wood
8 4 iron
9 3 wood
10 4 wood
11 4 wood
12 2 iron
13 3 wood
14 4 wood
15 2 iron
16 4 iron
17 3 wood
18 3 wood.
Back when men were men and they played real golf!
Beman's performance might be the most under-appreciated ever in a major championship.
And, seriously for Dustin Johnson, Brooks or Bryson to be hitting the clubs Palmer was using the course would have to be almost 9000 yards.
What's a standard driver, 4 iron hole for them? 550Y?

Nice post from Mike.
Elite golf is 'phoney' golf these days. The players and their skills are still amazing, incredible, but the relationship to comparative scoring is so far out of kilter as to be disingenuous.
atb

[William_G]

Champions is a great club, great members and leadership, fun stuff

[Roman Schwarz]

Curious what other people think of the hole with the steep bank on the left of the green sliding directly toward the water...think it might have been #10?


I had such mixed feelings watching.  Of course there's the side of me that enjoyed seeing people playing for money squirm.  I legitimately enjoyed watching a few get double crossed and pull it way right.  It's always fun to see the ball roll, but.....


...there was still something horrific about it.  I guess technically it's a recovery shot after the penalty stroke, but seeing recovery shots is part of the joy.  I wouldn't say the 15th is one of ANGC's best holes, though it's a great tournament hole.  Maybe it's the sheer length of the slope that goes to the water at Champions (with ANGC's being much tighter to the green), but it doesn't feel like it works as well there.  Maybe I'd like to see some stick and some go into the water for a little more "rub of the green" quotient?  It seemed unnecessary for Grant's pitch recovery to also go into the water for a 2nd drop.


Unlike many internet posters, I'm posting because I don't have an answer.   

[Lou_Duran]

Two courses which would not gain much love on this site, but a club which has as strong of a competitive membership as any.  If you like playing golf and developing your game, i.e. if keeping score is important to you, Champions is a great club.  Listening to Jackie's stories is worth the price of admission.  Seeing him walking the range watching his members is really awesome.  He expects his members to be serious about their game, always playing for enough money that they're not lackadaisical over a shot.

Lou:


I don't know anyone who doesn't think Jackie Burke is a great person, and Champions a great club, although your description of the club sounds like it would be torture for me. 


I am curious though, if you think that the golf course in any way reflects the ethos of the club.  No one on this thread has really said anything about the golf course so far, except for Ran.  [And giant greens are generally not what good players ask for.] 


The course was long and difficult back when that was still a thing, but there's no way it would be for scratch players now, is there?

I suspect that neither course at Champions would be to your liking.  No doubt that your reputation as a fine putter would be rewarded, but CC requires solid drives for most people, preferably to the proper half of the fairway, in order to get to or close to the greens.  I haven't been there for some seven years, but my recollection is that quirk and happenstance are mostly nonexistent.


The link below to the club's website contains a lot of good information.  The "60 Years of Pure Golf" is of particular interest.


https://www.championsgolfclub.com/


I haven't seen Chet Williams's bunker and greens 2018 restoration, but my guess, being acquainted with his work, is that it has enhanced the playability of the course without diluting its challenge.  I believe that some 100 yards were also added, so, along with typically softish conditions due to the rainy, humid climate of the area, my bet is that from the back tees it remains a long, challenging test even for the scratch golfer (I am guessing that it would receive a very high mark in Golf Digest's "Challenge"/resistance to scoring category, which is based not on the tour pro, but the club scratch golfer).


Please note that the large greens would not be that big of an issue to a scratch golfer who can control his distances to the hole with the shorter clubs.  But from the back for the long hitters and the middle tees for us distance impaired, only drives on most 2 shot holes hit solidly on the sweet spot will avoid middle and long iron/woods on the approach.  60'+ putts to 11'-12' stimped, subtle greens are not easy tasks even for good putters.  One would expect to hit a lot of greens there, but that hasn't been the case for me.  I know I've had a much easier time on and around the greens at Harbour Town (mostly around) than at CC.






   

[Lou_Duran]

One other thing, there is no doubt that the values espoused by many on this site continue to ascend- and I do believe that Ran Morrissett has been a major thought leader in this direction.  When I first moved to Texas over 40 years ago, Champions-CC was considered to be one of the top three or four courses in the state.  Likewise, Firestone-South was a perennial top America 100; Ohio State- Scarlet was recognized as the top collegiate course.


By 2010, the Dallas Morning News had CC as #9 in the state; #14 in 2019.  "Fun", whatever its meaning is to anyone of us, seems to be trending.  Whether that is a fad or something more enduring remains to be seen.  If it is the latter, courses such as CC will decline in wider appreciation, but I doubt that the club will have a hard time keeping its membership near full.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Two courses which would not gain much love on this site, but a club which has as strong of a competitive membership as any.  If you like playing golf and developing your game, i.e. if keeping score is important to you, Champions is a great club.  Listening to Jackie's stories is worth the price of admission.  Seeing him walking the range watching his members is really awesome.  He expects his members to be serious about their game, always playing for enough money that they're not lackadaisical over a shot.

Lou:


I don't know anyone who doesn't think Jackie Burke is a great person, and Champions a great club, although your description of the club sounds like it would be torture for me. 


I am curious though, if you think that the golf course in any way reflects the ethos of the club.  No one on this thread has really said anything about the golf course so far, except for Ran.  [And giant greens are generally not what good players ask for.] 


The course was long and difficult back when that was still a thing, but there's no way it would be for scratch players now, is there?

I suspect that neither course at Champions would be to your liking.  No doubt that your reputation as a fine putter would be rewarded, but CC requires solid drives for most people, preferably to the proper half of the fairway, in order to get to or close to the greens.  I haven't been there for some seven years, but my recollection is that quirk and happenstance are mostly nonexistent.

 
   

A preferred side of the fairway is far more important to avoid trees than to attack a hole location. The 3 par 5s aren't 3 shot holes for a scratch player - it is more like 14 par 4s too similar in length.
Peace

[Jeff Spittel]

I agree with everything you've said here, Lou. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, the biggest difference I saw post renovation was the improvement in turf conditions during the sweet spot of the season. When I played the course in July, the fairways were firm and very tight. Even in those conditions, the course wasn't short - the member who hosted was two years removed from D 1 golf, and he was still hitting considerably more than wedge into most of the par 4s. Of course, there is a big difference between a guy like that and DJ off the tee. 

[Alex Miller]

Perhaps one of the most clutch / strongest finishes by a player to cap off a major championship ever... barring an equally miraculous finish A.L. Kim closed it out in an incredible fashion birdieing the last 3 holes.