[Matt_Cohn]

I was just checking out Golf.com's Top 100 that allows you to save and share a list of the ones that you've played.

I played Southern Hills, Inverness, and Oak Hill 15-20 years ago. All three courses are vastly different now than when I played them. Inverness and Oak Hill both have entirely new holes. Would you still count them on your list of Top 100 courses you'd played? Where do you draw the line for your personal count?

[Tom_Doak]

If I've played a course I add one to my total.


The fact that clubs are tinkering all the time is inevitable but that doesn't mean I wasn't there.  Some of the rankings don't count votes that came before a major renovation [which is really a thumb on the scale in favor of courses that were recently restored], but that is irrelevant to me.

[David Ober]

I was just checking out Golf.com's Top 100 that allows you to save and share a list of the ones that you've played.

I played Southern Hills, Inverness, and Oak Hill 15-20 years ago. All three courses are vastly different now than when I played them. Inverness and Oak Hill both have entirely new holes. Would you still count them on your list of Top 100 courses you'd played? Where do you draw the line for your personal count?

Thanks for making me feel sad, Matt. ;-)


A measly 13 -- and five of them at Bandon!

[MCirba]

Matt,

Definitely I count them.

A tougher one is the Sheep Ranch.   I played the Doak version back around 2001 but haven't been back to Bandon since, regrettably.   

[Ira Fishman]

Quick diversion: is Lawsonia Links only course on list with green fee less than $100?


Ira

[Doug Bolls]

If a course has been re-routed or has changed the configuration of holes (ie: par 3 changed to a par 4 or par 4 shortened to a par3, etc) - I count it as a new course on my list.


Something a simple as flipping 9's or updating greens, bunkers etc doesn't count in my book.

[Kalen Braley]

I also still count the NLEs I've played, been a couple of those...

[Paul Rudovsky]

This is a question that can be answered many ways.  I have kept careful track of the courses I have played over the last 66 years and they now total 1261.  I also keep track "top 100 lists" going back to the first one in 1966 for USA and 1979 for world...and how many I have played from each list...and the same for important events (e.g., Men's Majors, Women's Majors, Senior Majors, 5 Cups...Ryder/Pres/Walker/Solheim/Curtis, etc etc).  As a result I have had to consider this question and where to "draw the line".


Best way to illustrate is to provide a series of examples:


1.  Fresh Meadow CC hosted a US Open in 1932 and a PGA Championship in 1930 and was located in Queens NY (I grew up about 3 miles from this original site) until about 1947 when it moved about 5-6 miles east to Nassau Cty and its current site.  So does playing the current site mean you played the Open/PGA track?


2.  Similarly, Baltimore CC hosted a US Open at it original Roland Park site in 1899 and move to its Five Farms campus in 1926, eventually closing the golf course at Roland Park in 1962 (although the land for three or the original holes still exists and is "maintained" about like Yale was this past summer  ).  So...does playing the East or West Course a 5 Farms mean you have played the 1899 site?


3.  Prior to retaining Tillie to create 36 holes (Upper and Lower courses) Baltusrol GC had a 9 hole course on the current site which opened in 1895, was expanded to 18 holes in 1898 and was modified by George Low sometime in the following 20+ years.  The original 18 and the modified 18 hosted US Opens in 1903 and 1915 respectively, but the modified course was completely plowed under by Tillinghast in the mid 1920's when he built the 36 hole setup.  Question...if you play the current Upper and Lower courses, have you played the 1903 and 1915 US Open sites?


4. About 4-5 years ago, Royal Portrush closed down its holes 17 and 18 on its Dunluce Course (and golf holes no longer occupy that land) and took two holes from its Valley Course, renovated those two holes and inserted these holes on Dunluce (and also replaced the two missing holes on Valley with two new holes on other land).  So if you played Dunluce in 2015, while you clearly have played the site of the 1951 Open Championship, have you played the site of the 2019 Open Championship?


5. You played The Old Course about 15 years ago, but of course played it from the standard tee boxes (as the Open Championship boxes were closed...and today's tee box on #17 was not built and its land was not even considered part of the course).  So have you played the site of some 29 Open Championships?


6.  As I recall (could be wrong on one or both off these) for the 2013 US Open, the USGA had a bunker placed about 30-50 years short of Merion's 2nd green, and for the 1998 or 2012 US Open they did something similar on Olympic's #17.  In both cases the new bunker was removed shortly after the Open Championship.  If you played either or both courses about 2 years after those Opens...did you play the venue fo those Opens?


7.  You were invited to play Winged Foot West about 2 weeks after the US open was held there in October and you were able to play the championship tees (hopefully you have the game for that, otherwise you might still be trying to complete your round).  But of course the pin positions were not the same positions used on any of the days of this year's US Open.  Did you play the host course for the 2020 US Open?


8.  Lastly, the old Desert Inn course in Las Vegas hosted some 14 PGA Tour Tournament of Champions events.  About 5 years ago, Steve Wynn plowed that course away and in the same footprint built his new Wynn Golf Club (artificial waterfalls and all).  So, does the Desert Inn NLE? And if want to play all the Tournament of Champions sites, do you need to play Wynn Golf?


I could outline hundreds of other hypotheticals but the above are enough to show the answer to the question posed in the post is not
obvious.


For what it is worth, I have concluded that the right answer focuses on the footprint where the golf course existed.  If that footprint still contains a golf course, you need to play it.  So to me, the answers to these above are as follows:


1.  The site of the '30 PGA and '32 US Open is a NLE...the Nassau Cty home of Fresh Meadow CC never held a major and if one is looking to play all PGA or US Open sites, playing the current FMCC site is not necessary.


2.  Same for BCC's Roland Park...but I did play the three remaining holes about 5 years ago (got permission first)...and you need to play Five Farms East as it hosted the 1928 PGA (and a bunch of other big events).


3.  Under my definition by playing today's Upper and Lower courses you have played the venue for all 7 US Opens Baltusrol GC has hosted.


4.  Answer regarding Royal Portrush is NO...it is necessary to return to play the new holes 7 and 8.  This affects moi, as I played it twice, last time in 2016 but the new holes were not open for play, and I did not play Valley before the changes. 


5.  Yes, same essential footprint...otherwise very very few have played any of these courses.


6.  Yes, regarding Merion and Olympic for same reason as #5 above


7.  Yes regarding WF-W as well for same reason


8.  Per my definition, the Desert Inn site still holds a golf course...so it still exists and one needs to play it to play all still existing T of C sites...and this same question could be asked about Sheep Ranch...under my definition if you played Tom's original, you do not need to (but should) play today's C-C version, and if you play the C-C version you have played the old Doak version.  If you have played both the old and the new versions I think it should count as one course on your lists. 


And I count the NLE's that I have played...including BCC's Roland Park site, Englewood CC (NJ) which I played in 1962 and hosted a US  Open in 1909 (when I had played it about 7 -9 of the original holes were gone due to construction of a new entrance to the GW Bridge), Wolf Run (IN), and Red Fox (NC). 


I played Inverness, Southern Hills and Oak Hill-East before their extensive renovations/restorations...and I believe I do not need to get back to them for "bucket list" reasons, but I do need to do so to see the changes (was at Oak Hill this summer).


Ira--regarding green fees below $100, I think for sure at Bethpage if you are a NY State resident...and my guess is there are still some private clubs on top 100 lists with accompanied green fees < $100.

[Joe Hancock]

If the parking lot where I slam my trunk is at the same address, it only counts as one for me.....

[Tim Martin]

Quick diversion: is Lawsonia Links only course on list with green fee less than $100?


Ira

Ira-I would bet that the Glens Falls CC guest fee is less than $100.

[MCirba]

If the parking lot where I slam my trunk is at the same address, it only counts as one for me.....

Same here, Joe.

[Pete_Pittock]

        I'll boil this down to Oregon.  Juniper in Redmond moved from north of the airport to south of the airport. I consider that two golf courses, and I have a logo golf ball from both in my collection. I have played the old sheep ranch, and need to play the C/C course to retain my "all Oregon courses" record and add another ball to the collection. If I was old enough to play Eugene before its reversal, that would be a separate course
         Oregon State's Trysting Tree made major changes but kept more than 50% of the original holes, but many of those have been renumbered. I still consider that the same core course, even though I went to play the new holes.
         A number of years ago I flew to Pittsburgh for a First Tee outing at Oakmont. It was a shotgun start and I started on 8.
I sure count Oakmont, even though I missed two 10' birdie putts, one par putt and one bogey putt in the first two holes.


List of courses is at 549, with limited growth potential.  Concur the TOC(Reverse) is a different course than TOC

[Mark Pritchett]

Quick diversion: is Lawsonia Links only course on list with green fee less than $100?


Ira

Bethpage Black for NY residents is still under $100. 

[jeffwarne]

Matt,

Definitely I count them.

A tougher one is the Sheep Ranch.   I played the Doak version back around 2001 but haven't been back to Bandon since, regrettably.   

You still played it.
You'll just get to count it twice

[Tommy Williamsen]

Although not in the top 100, I played Pinehurst #4 in three different iterations. Before Fazio, after Fazio, and after Hanse. I count it as one. It gets too complicated to do all that. Same thing for Inverness and Oak Hill. I've played over 1500 courses. Many of them have undergone major overhauls. I just have no desire to figure out which ones to count as two or if I should count it as played when it has under gone a major renovation.

[Brad Tufts]

This is always a fun discussion.


I've never had a course I played move to a new location so that would be interesting.  I do count the NLEs...I have maybe 7 or 8 of those.


I count the renovations as the same course...my list includes a general architect history so that would explain that.


I also count pitch & putts as it is real golf with real clubs...I only have one, Holmby Hills Park in LA.


My weirdness comes when I play a 27-hole facility.  If the nines are interchangeable, I count it as one.  If there is a main 18 and an "other nine," then that is two.  For TCC in Boston, I have played the members 18, the championship routing, and the Primrose, so I count that as three...it probably should be two given there are only 27 holes, but it's my list so my rules! 

[Doug Bolls]

I used to count 27 holes as 3 different courses.  Then I changed my mind.  It's not 3, but it's greater than one - so I have settled on two. 

[MCirba]

A few guidelines for how I count courses:

Same course on same property is 1 (One) course even with significant revisions.

Multiple courses on the same property are multiple courses on the same property (think Pinehurst, where courses 1, 2, 3, 4, ad infinitum, as well as Cradle) each count as 1 (One) course.

Completely different course on the same property if I've played them both counts as 2 (Two) courses.   For instance, I've played the Rees Jones course called Eagle Lodge that was blown (dug?) up and completely re-routed and re-constructed to create the ACE Club, by Gary Player/Warren Henderson.   Wondering how much Sheep Ranch falls into this category?

27 Hole courses are 27 hole courses and thus 1 (One) course, unless...unless 18 of those holes are never played interchangeably with the other nine.   For instance, Philadelphia Country Club has their regular 18 hole course and a "Centennial Nine" which is it's own course, so 2 (Two) courses there (although I've yet to play Centennial, which is presently being rebuilt by Jim Nagle/Ron Forse).

Any course permutation less than 18, and that includes in my experience courses of 9, 10, 12, 14 holes is 1 (One) course.

Of course I also include NLE courses in my listing which is sadly 104 (and growing) of the 1,162 courses I've played to date.

[Rob Marshall]

Although not in the top 100, I played Pinehurst #4 in three different iterations. Before Fazio, after Fazio, and after Hanse. I count it as one. It gets too complicated to do all that. Same thing for Inverness and Oak Hill. I've played over 1500 courses. Many of them have undergone major overhauls. I just have no desire to figure out which ones to count as two or if I should count it as played when it has under gone a major renovation.

I was under quarantine due to travel restrictions until I tested out today. While bored yesterday I started listing all the courses that I've played by state and country. I'm just short of 150. 1500 is amazing.

[Edward Glidewell]

Although not in the top 100, I played Pinehurst #4 in three different iterations. Before Fazio, after Fazio, and after Hanse. I count it as one. It gets too complicated to do all that. Same thing for Inverness and Oak Hill. I've played over 1500 courses. Many of them have undergone major overhauls. I just have no desire to figure out which ones to count as two or if I should count it as played when it has under gone a major renovation.

It actually is in the top 100 now; it's ranked 92 on the newest GOLF Magazine list.


I think it depends on how much was changed. If it's just a big renovation/restoration, it's the same course. If a new course was built over the original (different greens, bunkers, etc.), it's a different course to me -- even if the routing is the same.

[MCirba]

I hear you there Edward and struggle philosophically a bit with that one.


I guess to a decisive degree I believe routing is destiny (there are very few prominent courses that haven't had greens, bunkers, and such rebuilt, moved, added, enlarged, shrunken, etc.) at times in their history so I struggle where to draw that line.  For me, if all or the vast majority of a routing has changed it's a new course, otherwise it's a revamping.


Being completely honest, I'm affected by owner and name change as well and more inclined to see it as a new course when that happens, within the guidelines I described above.

[Doug Bolls]

Does anyone know how many people have played 1000?  I am at 970 - 30 to go for 1000.  Plan to get there next spring/summer depending on COVID / travel / access.
My friends and acquaintances are making a big deal of it.  I've spoken to a few older Professionals (Casper, Coody, etc) about how many different courses they played - none think they are anywhere close to 1000.  They play a lot, but tend to return to same courses over and over.
Tommy and Mike - you're both over 1000++.  What do you think about how many have done it?

[Edward Glidewell]

I hear you there Edward and struggle philosophically a bit with that one.


I guess to a decisive degree I believe routing is destiny (there are very few prominent courses that haven't had greens, bunkers, and such rebuilt, moved, added, enlarged, shrunken, etc.) at times in their history so I struggle where to draw that line.  For me, if all or the vast majority of a routing has changed it's a new course, otherwise it's a revamping.


Being completely honest, I'm affected by owner and name change as well and more inclined to see it as a new course when that happens, within the guidelines I described above.

I agree that altering/moving some of the greens etc. doesn't create a new course. I'm really talking about a situation where an architect comes in, bulldozes the course that was there, and designs something completely new along the old hole corridors. There could be a par 3 and a par 4 in a corridor where they used to be a single par 5 and so on. At that point I think it's become a new, distinct course separate from the old one as long as it's happened to the whole course and not just a handful of holes.

A good example is the UNC Finley golf course, which was originally designed by George Cobb. Tom Fazio was hired to come in and create an entirely new course over the old one. I don't think anyone who played the Cobb course would recognize the Fazio course as the same place if you showed them photos -- it's the same site, but a totally different course. Fazio basically started over from scratch. I would consider them two separate courses despite inhabiting the same piece of land.


I suppose you could argue that's a new routing, though, if the tees and greens are all in different places from the original course, even if the corridors are similar.

[MCirba]

Thanks, Edward, and framed that way I think I'd agree with you.

In other words, if I had played the original George Cobb course and then later played the Fazio iteration I'd likely see and count it as two different courses.   However, being anal and OCD, if I never played the former and only played the latter I'd note the Cobb routing and construction as part of the history of UNC Finley, particularly if original hole corridors remained in use.   


Thanks, Doug, and to your question of over 1000 courses played beyond myself and Tommy Williamsen mentioned here, I personally know...let's see... guess I can name names here since most are either current or former contributors on GCA but I know Mark Fine, Matt Ward, Cory Lewis, Bob Fagan, a few other Golfweek guys and there's a guy from my high school who's over 1,300, so although the total number worldwide is probably less than 100 it's become easier the past few decades with easier travel, more courses built (overbuilt?), and let's face it, the Internet to help one network and communicate among fellow obsessive madmen...er, golf course aficionados.   

[V. Kmetz]

Here's one that's tough for me on the focus Paul R brought up

TCC - Brookline...

I played it in 1989 (all 27 member holes of all 3 nines) and 1995 ("the alleged Open layout") and except for 17 and 18 I still don't fully recognize where the historic tourneys were/are routed there.  Both visits were followed (as we all do) by absorbing the available materials on the Open reportage and even, in those immediate moments could not truly matchup where I had been/what hole that I had just played.


I read some recent articles on its reno=storation, and am even more confused.

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