Consensus, Splitting Hairs, Bandon Dunes Resort

[Ronald Montesano]

From a concurrent thread: "The consensus from the no laying up crew was the same.  Pac Dunes and Old Mac the 4th and 5th ranked courses on the property."

Exhibit A: There are 5 golf course of full length on the property. Their worth is recognized and respected throughout the world. Each one will appeal to a different clientele, in a different manner;

Exhibit B: There is no major flaw on any of those 90 golf holes. A particular hole, or shot, may not be your cup of tea, but all were designed by men of great reputation and skill, and built by men of great reputation and skill, and cared for by men of great reputation and skill. Splitting hairs does no one good;

Exhibit C: Consensus is a fool's errand.

[Andrew Harvie]

Pacific Dunes is head and shoulders better than Bandon Trails, but they're both good. I've heard a few folks not really like Pacific Dunes but I imagine it's only because they played bad. I played it in 40MPH winds and still thought it was fine.


I only played those two when I was there in 2018 -- it's a long story!

[Alex Miller]

Pacific Dunes is head and shoulders better than Bandon Trails, but they're both good. I've heard a few folks not really like Pacific Dunes but I imagine it's only because they played bad. I played it in 40MPH winds and still thought it was fine.


I only played those two when I was there in 2018 -- it's a long story!

And I disagree! Bandon Trails perhaps my favorite design on the property, Pacific my favorite course, Sheep Ranch my favorite playing experience. Those are my top 3 in some order depending on my mood and could see them changing places many times over. Bandon is next and Old Mac last, but there is merit to each course obviously.


Agree with Ron - and credit to Mr. Keiser for understanding how to develop Bandon into a place that fosters discussion and offers high quality variety for visitors.

[Tom_Doak]

From a concurrent thread: "The consensus from the no laying up crew was the same.  Pac Dunes and Old Mac the 4th and 5th ranked courses on the property."

Exhibit C: Consensus is a fool's errand.

Well, the two major golf magazines and their panels both have Pacific Dunes rated as the best course at the resort - by a significant margin - so their "consensus" is not quite the same as the bros from No Laying Up who have all played it once or twice.


At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion, but the announced "consensus" is rather small and wasn't even really announced that way.

[Andrew Harvie]

From a concurrent thread: "The consensus from the no laying up crew was the same.  Pac Dunes and Old Mac the 4th and 5th ranked courses on the property."

Exhibit C: Consensus is a fool's errand.

Well, the two major golf magazines and their panels both have Pacific Dunes rated as the best course at the resort - by a significant margin - so their "consensus" is not quite the same as the bros from No Laying Up who have all played it once or twice.


At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion, but the announced "consensus" is rather small and wasn't even really announced that way.

I go to the No Laying Up crew for golf course advice like I go to my hockey player brother who only eats meat & potatoes for high-end restaurant recommendations. I don't

[David Ober]

Pacific Dunes is head and shoulders better than Bandon Trails, but they're both good. I've heard a few folks not really like Pacific Dunes but I imagine it's only because they played bad. I played it in 40MPH winds and still thought it was fine.


I only played those two when I was there in 2018 -- it's a long story!

Completely disagree. Bandon Trails my favorite, followed by Bandon Dunes.


That said, wind definitely plays a roll. Would love to play them all in 10 to 20mph.

[Peter Pallotta]

The one person who’s been there and that I’ve actually talked to answered me this way, ie for him, on the two days he played (in late February, I believe);
The most fun was Old Macdonald.
The one where he shot his lowest score was Bandon.
The best course overall was Pacific.
The hardest course (worst score) was Trails.
He said when he goes back he wants to play all four again

[Drew Maliniak]

I think people don't actively avoid any of the courses at Bandon, including Punchbowl, Shorty's and Preserve.


That may be the real key.


Frankly, at Pinehurst, you want to play No. 2, 4 and the Cradle. And you might be willing to skip the rest or head to Pine Needles, Mid-Pines and Tobacco Road.

[James Brown]

From a concurrent thread: "The consensus from the no laying up crew was the same.  Pac Dunes and Old Mac the 4th and 5th ranked courses on the property."

Exhibit C: Consensus is a fool's errand.

Well, the two major golf magazines and their panels both have Pacific Dunes rated as the best course at the resort - by a significant margin - so their "consensus" is not quite the same as the bros from No Laying Up who have all played it once or twice.


At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion, but the announced "consensus" is rather small and wasn't even really announced that way.

Pacific Dunes evokes a much greater emotion range of emotions than the other courses.  But you have to play it multiple times to appreciate that. 

[Mark_Fine]

If this thread accomplished anything it has shown how highly Tom Doak thinks of the rankings of the major golf publications.  I didn’t know he felt they were so accurate 


All the courses at Bandon are top notch and if you haven’t played them each multiple times in various conditions, it is hardly fair to assess which one is the best.  Most everyone judges them anyway after one visit but as I have said many times here, one or two trips around is not enough especially if you are really try to decide rankings.  I actually love The Preserve. 

[Pete_Pittock]

With this kind of "rating", is there much of an effect of the courses one usually plays.  The more the particular Bandon courses mimics what they are used to and upon which they are comfortable, the more likelihood that Bandon course would be placed higher in being liked?

[Garland Bayley]

I find the NLU videos to be boring. I'm not particularly interested in their course opinions. Personally, I think Bandon Dunes and David Kidd are overrated. Tetherow and the Castle Course don't show him to be particularly inspiring either. Perhaps if I go to Gamble Sands and shoot a low score, I'll temper my judgment.

[David Ober]

I find the NLU videos to be boring. I'm not particularly interested in their course opinions. Personally, I think Bandon Dunes and David Kidd are overrated. Tetherow and the Castle Course don't show him to be particularly inspiring either. Perhaps if I go to Gamble Sands and shoot a low score, I'll temper my judgment.

I was shocked I enjoyed Bandon Dunes as much as I did. The Castle was easily in the top few worst golf experiences I have ever had.

[Tim Martin]

If this thread accomplished anything it has shown how highly Tom Doak thinks of the rankings of the major golf publications.  I didn’t know he felt they were so accurate 

I picked up on that as well. Long live the golf magazines!!!!!

[Ronald Montesano]

I think that you two jokesters are misreading intent. I read it as an example of consensus, independent of him and his work. Keeping in mind the vast number of raters that total both panels, that would be a fine example of consensus, if I didn't consider it to be a fool's errand.

How difficult, to separate one's own experience? Those who touch on how someone played, or scored, as the major (and sometimes, only) factor in assessing greatness, are 100% correct. I was once encouraged to play a course like a practice round, if interested in rating. No score to match nor fear; hit tee ball, play from rough, play from fairway, hit chip shot, bunker shot, putts from all over, ALWAYS turning around to make certain that no one is being delayed by my antics.

[Tim Martin]

I think that you two jokesters are misreading intent. I read it as an example of consensus, independent of him and his work. Keeping in mind the vast number of raters that total both panels, that would be a fine example of consensus, if I didn't consider it to be a fool's errand.

How difficult, to separate one's own experience? Those who touch on how someone played, or scored, as the major (and sometimes, only) factor in assessing greatness, are 100% correct. I was once encouraged to play a course like a practice round, if interested in rating. No score to match nor fear; hit tee ball, play from rough, play from fairway, hit chip shot, bunker shot, putts from all over, ALWAYS turning around to make certain that no one is being delayed by my antics.

Ron-There are plenty of players that can disassociate score from their impression of the golf course.

[jeffwarne]

I Like blondes, brunettes and redheads,  and hybrids of all the above.
If I found 5 super attractive,accessible,available and willing, all in one place,I probably wouldn't rank them...

[Ronald Montesano]

Jeff#1-I hope that you are correct. I'm thinking of the weekend golfer, the one that takes the trip once/twice a year, then ascends the pulpit to preach.


Jeff#2-I am in your camp. I've been guilty of ranking those four (haven't played baa baa baa yet) with no definable method; perhaps why I weigh in now on this topic, with newfound clarity.

[Tim Martin]

Jeff#1-I hope that you are correct. I'm thinking of the weekend golfer, the one that takes the trip once/twice a year, then ascends the pulpit to preach.


Jeff#2-I am in your camp. I've been guilty of ranking those four (haven't played baa baa baa yet) with no definable method; perhaps why I weigh in now on this topic, with newfound clarity.

You can’t have rankings/ratings without consensus despite the demographic you choose to employ.

[Tom_Doak]

If this thread accomplished anything it has shown how highly Tom Doak thinks of the rankings of the major golf publications.  I didn’t know he felt they were so accurate 

I picked up on that as well. Long live the golf magazines!!!!!

I said nothing of the sort, I just pointed out that their consensus was much different than the supposed "consensus" at the start of this thread.


I have come to expect that Mark will either misunderstand or deliberately misinterpret my posts here, but I didn't think you were also in that camp.

[Tim Martin]

If this thread accomplished anything it has shown how highly Tom Doak thinks of the rankings of the major golf publications.  I didn’t know he felt they were so accurate 

I picked up on that as well. Long live the golf magazines!!!!!

I said nothing of the sort, I just pointed out that their consensus was much different than the supposed "consensus" at the start of this thread.


I have come to expect that Mark will either misunderstand or deliberately misinterpret my posts here, but I didn't think you were also in that camp.

I thought Ron purposely started a provocative thread and I’m surprised you replied. Most on this site know where the magazines weigh in on the Bandon courses and that includes Golf. You somehow felt the need to defend your courses using the magazines as evidence. The only camp I’m in is the one that shoots straight.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

The NLU position of Pac Dunes and Old Mac being the "worst" strikes me as just a hot take for discussion's sake. The fact is, Bandon has something for everyone. For myself, my favorite was Old Mac. I had never played a CBM/Raynor course (still haven't in fact ) but was very intrigued by the famous templates and huge scale employed by them. I also was spraying the bejesus out of the ball at the time so it fit my game the best with its massive width and scale. So on my trip I was able to double up on one course and chose OM. In the course of my second play I figured out what strategy actually was on the Road template, by doing exactly what you shouldn't do on the first play, and solving the riddle on the second. Trails was my least favorite although it was nothing less than excellent. BD was not rated, as we played it in literal sheets of rain (never really "saw" the course) and the result was pure comedy before calling it quits after 9. PD was number 2, but I could see it moving towards #1 with successive plays.

[Steve Lang]

   NLU content & opinions are certainly fun for fans and social media consumption.  Happy for them to make a living at it, nice story and all, what's not to like with friends keeping it real, a perpetual video buddy trip?  I guess big question is content, how does the hipster point of view stay relevant and who will supersede them and their epic shots and talking into golf grip microphones... the gm_golf kids half their age? 


My golfing buds (Walt, Disco, & Grandpa) & I text and trash talk about golf and our revisionist histories of Golf Carolinas, Golf Ohio, Golf TN/KY from annual lost week trips from1979-2005,   There must be 10's of thousands of buddy golf trips with thoughtful to whimsical opinions out there and the number at Bandon continuing to grow...  yeh consensus, talk about it in a decade or two boys...



I liked them all at Bandon, but didn't get to play BD... next time, and it will probably still be all square.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
You know you were defending your own course and used the major rankings to do so when it suits you.  Just admit that because it was obvious to anyone reading your post, not just me.  I was actually happy to see you defending those ranking (consensuses) since they get bashed to death around here.  I agree with Tim on this one, we were both just shooting straight.  And I would beg to differ that I always misunderstand or misinterpret your posts.  I sure don't do it purposely.  If we don't agree on something so be it.  This site is for healthy and lively (and respectful) debate. 

[Jason Thurman]

Bandon is the only multi-course resort I can think of where four reasonable lovers of great golf courses could have four different answers to the "Which course is best?" question. And, for that matter, four different answers to the "Which course is least-great?" question.


I've not played the Sheep Ranch, but from early reviews, it sounds like it has already changed the number in the questions above from "four" to "five."


I'd probably be as likely to take a recommendation from one of the NLU guys as I would be to take the recommendation of a guy who's played two of the courses at Bandon one time apiece. They may not be great at regurgitating the Right Rankings, but they're pretty well traveled guys who clearly love great courses. And when I heard critiques of courses in their vids, those critiques were backed up with some substance worthy of thought. I don't know if I agree that holes like 14, 16, and 18 at Pacific fall flat, but I understand the point that Loud Bro was making when he explained that they don't quite do it for him. As opposed to...

Pacific Dunes evokes a much greater emotion range of emotions than the other courses.  But you have to play it multiple times to appreciate that. 

Literal LOL. Imagine somebody saying some nonsense like this at the bar after a round. Let's bring back frank discussion, and stop dressing up pseudo-enlightened non-statements in smugness until they sound like something a too-tired-to-explain visionary might mumble.