ANGC #13

[Kalen Braley]

Now that BDC has made a mockery of #13 (3 wood/SW), what is the over/under on the Green Jackets remedying this before the tournament in April?


They could easily push back the tee 60 yards, and goes without saying a trivial change with the resources at their disposal.

[Tal Oz]

Kalen, given Chairman Ridley's Wednesday press conference where he said unequivocally no changes happening before the April 2021 tournament I'd answer your question with zero chance. ANGC's season has just begun after all.

[Matthew Rose]

Pretty soon the walk from 12 green to 13 tee is gonna be longer than the 12th hole itself.

[Tom_Doak]

They do any work to the course in the summers, when the bermudagrass grows.  So, this won't happen for another 7-8 months.  Also, pros can probably use a tee similar to what you've drawn without killing someone on #12 green, but for members taking the tee so far back would be dangerous.


I personally hope that they change the ball instead of changing the 13th hole at Augusta National.  Bryson is the only guy taking that new line, and he wasn't a factor on Sunday this year even with that advantage.

[Kalen Braley]

I was thinking it would be a Masters only tee, certainly with the proximity of 12.  Doing the work after April makes perfect sense thou.  Perhaps 2022...

[JESII]

Ok...so this is THE prime example of the long-standing GCA beard pulling debate as to whether PAR #'s matter.




My argument for the current tee is simply that the players are more or less forced to try to get there in two and have to hit good shots to do so. Move back 60 yards and only a few players will go to the tee intending to get there in 2.




Major question...and where I'd love this to go.


Who thinks Dustin Johnson would have laid up from the fairway at 205 yards or so if the hole were a par 4?


He was a couple shots ahead at the time (not the 5 he ended up winning by) and apparently was a little uncomfortable with something about the ball. Mud, tight lie...I don't know but I really wonder if he would have laid up if it were a par 4...

[Kalen Braley]

Jim,

That wasn't what I recall from watching this year.  Most of the guys were laying up short of the trees with 3 wood, and then still hitting it on in 2.  (DJ just didn't go in the final round because he had a mud ball and was protecting a 4 shot lead).

Move the tee back 50-60 yards and now these guys are hitting driver again off the tee like they used to for most of Masters history...

[Peter Flory]

It is such a big dogleg that it may not take 60 yards of extension to make the hole 60 yards longer, if that makes sense.  I believe that it currently only 410 from the tee to the green on a straight line.  They would just have to extend it enough that Bryson wouldn't be able to clear the trees on hit line and that might only take 20 yards for example. 

[Matt_Cohn]

I think the unknown is what yardage would actually produce the "momentous" decision that Jones talked about. 230? 250?


Once you know that number, you can figure out where the tee should be so that they'd generally have second shots from around that yardage.


Even if ANGC has been collecting data, I doubt there have been many guys in the fairway but 250 yards from that green. They probably wouldn't have much data to know what that yardage would be. My guess is that 240-250 would be a pretty indecisive yardage to that green. I wouldn't imagine many guys going for it with a 3-wood at 260+, unless they get rid of the Nicklaus gully around the left side of the green, which might be nice.

[JESII]

I think he was only 2 ahead. If I looked at Smith's card correctly, it was 17 to 15 at that point.


He was obviously torn about the decision and chose laying up. The lie or mud was obviously the reason he was torn. Do you think if it were a par 4 he would have laid up?


I do not...emphatically...

[Jeff Schley]

I think the unknown is what yardage would actually produce the "momentous" decision that Jones talked about. 230? 250?


Once you know that number, you can figure out where the tee should be so that they'd generally have second shots from around that yardage.


Even if ANGC has been collecting data, I doubt there have been many guys in the fairway but 250 yards from that green. They probably wouldn't have much data to know what that yardage would be. My guess is that 240-250 would be a pretty indecisive yardage to that green. I wouldn't imagine many guys going for it with a 3-wood at 260+, unless they get rid of the Nicklaus gully around the left side of the green, which might be nice.

Good question. I think it depends on their lie actually. If it is from the fairway I don't think hardly anyone in the fairway is 250 plus, most either executed their draw to get 200-230, or ended up on the hill or in the trees as they didn't execute the draw. So either shrink the fairway and bring rough or more pines (gasp) down closer to the fairway at the bend, or move the tee back and left (or maybe just left is enough?).
I do love watching everyone go for it as we remember so many years that shot particularly.

[Thomas Dai]

Ok...so this is THE prime example of the long-standing GCA beard pulling debate as to whether PAR #'s matter.
My argument for the current tee is simply that the players are more or less forced to try to get there in two and have to hit good shots to do so. Move back 60 yards and only a few players will go to the tee intending to get there in 2.
Major question...and where I'd love this to go.
Who thinks Dustin Johnson would have laid up from the fairway at 205 yards or so if the hole were a par 4?
He was a couple shots ahead at the time (not the 5 he ended up winning by) and apparently was a little uncomfortable with something about the ball. Mud, tight lie...I don't know but I really wonder if he would have laid up if it were a par 4...

A very fair point Jim.
Whilst some may belittle the concept of 'par' it does have an effect between players ears, ie on player expectations, temptation and ego.
Player expectations, temptation and player ego are hugely underrated imo. Tom D often mentions the Pete Dye comment akin to "get these guys thinking and you've got them in trouble".*


As an aside - trees grow taller and wider over the yrs - have the trees on the inside of the dog-leg on the 13th been allowed to get taller and wider or is there height and width trimmed regularly?


atb




* I'm guess Tom'll correct me if my wording isn't exactly spot-on.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I’ll point out that the scoring average for this hole in 2020 was 4.5217, and that there’s supposedly a limb on the corner that’s on a cable that the club can “take up” or “let out” a little.

The longer rough had more players laying up, this year, I think as well.

[Kalen Braley]

Eric,

I think you were just looking at the Round 1 stat from this year.  Overall it was 4.6126 But its still perhaps justification to "do" something about it.

https://www.masters.com/en_US/course/hole13.html

P.S. I know these guys are approaching from similar distances as yesteryear, but its there really as much intrigue/tension when they're hitting a 6 iron from 200 yards vs 3-4 iron and balls that don't fly straight?

[MClutterbuck]

Doesn't the hole need a ton more width at 300 yards on the right side (risk reward on drive has you play further right and adds yardage) and some selective penalizing feature at 350+ yards?

[Thomas Dai]

The 13th at ANGC as things once were.
atb


Circa late 1940's from the then tee.



Mid 1930's looking towards the green.



Early times aerial - would the one-time massive fairway bunker on the 14th now be in play for Bryson and Co?

[Tim Martin]

The 13th at ANGC as things once were.
atb


Circa late 1940's from the then tee.



Mid 1930's looking towards the green.



Early times aerial - would the one-time massive fairway bunker on the 14th now be in play for Bryson and Co?

Thomas-Great Pictures!!! I noticed in your first shot that the gallery is in front of the pines whereas today they are behind.

[Jeff Evagues]

There was always the story that Snead would tell a rookie on the tee "When I was your age I would hit it right over the corner" and after the ball hit the trees he would say "of course when I was your age the trees were only half as tall"

[Rob Marshall]

I’ll point out that the scoring average for this hole in 2020 was 4.5217, and that there’s supposedly a limb on the corner that’s on a cable that the club can “take up” or “let out” a little.

The longer rough had more players laying up, this year, I think as well.

What’s next a mechanical tree they can raise or lower during the tournament?

[Jeff Evagues]

I’ll point out that the scoring average for this hole in 2020 was 4.5217, and that there’s supposedly a limb on the corner that’s on a cable that the club can “take up” or “let out” a little.

The longer rough had more players laying up, this year, I think as well.

What’s next a mechanical tree they can raise or lower during the tournament?

Call it the "Hinkle Tree"

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I think you were just looking at the Round 1 stat from this year.  Overall it was 4.6126 But its still perhaps justification to "do" something about it.

https://www.masters.com/en_US/course/hole13.html

https://www.masters.com/en_US/scores/stats/index.html

Yeah, I clicked the link there and scrolled down, so I didn't see at the top that "round 1" was selected. 4.6126, yes. So again it's not like it's "more a par 4 than a par 5". (Paraphrasing things I've heard - not specifically here today.)

[Matthew Rose]

I’ll point out that the scoring average for this hole in 2020 was 4.5217, and that there’s supposedly a limb on the corner that’s on a cable that the club can “take up” or “let out” a little.

The longer rough had more players laying up, this year, I think as well.

What’s next a mechanical tree they can raise or lower during the tournament?

Ha.... don't give them any ideas.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Ha.... don't give them any ideas.

They already have that - see my post about the tree that's on the cable.

[Rob Marshall]

Augusta has a tree on a cable? Hence my comment about a mechanical tree. Googled and can’t find anything about Augusta moving tree limbs on cables.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Augusta has a tree on a cable? Hence my comment about a mechanical tree. Googled and can’t find,  I would love to see the article on that. What’s next fact grass on the greens?

Marc Leishman's caddie (Matty Kelly) has said that they have a big tree limb on a cable on 13. They "let it out" a little from Weds to Thu.

https://nolayingup.com/podcasts/no-laying-up-podcast/nlu-podcast-episode-371-every-hole-at-augusta-national-with-matty-kelly-marc-leishman-s-caddie

It's in that one somewhere.