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Mike Hendren

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Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« on: November 16, 2020, 01:21:11 PM »
Discuss.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom_Doak

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2020, 02:01:58 PM »
Most bunkers are built much larger than necessary in order to look good, not to play well.

SL_Solow

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2020, 02:09:12 PM »
Tom,  doesn't it depend on the scale of the property and the other features?  In practice that may mean many (or most) are built out of scale but I am wary of generalities.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2020, 02:12:51 PM »
Tom,  doesn't it depend on the scale of the property and the other features?  In practice that may mean many (or most) are built out of scale but I am wary of generalities.


Making the bunker "in scale" visually is exactly what I meant -- bunkers are bigger than necessary so they will look good in the landscape.  But I doubt many architects really want players who have missed the green by 20-30 yards to be in the sand..

MCirba

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2020, 02:35:11 PM »
Saw the opposite of this earlier in the year at the clumsily named "Pete Dye River Course at Virginia Tech" where the bunkers are so small.

How small are they, Mike??

They are so small that the angry man needs to stand outside while his niblick takes care of business.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Peter Pallotta

Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2020, 03:16:23 PM »
Are we noticing/asking this now because of the modern preference for very large sites? Has the scale (ie relative bunker size) actually stayed fairly constant over the decades? [Real question, not a rhetorical one: has it? Are Merion’s bunkers the ‘same size’ as those at a modern top 10, relatively speaking?] In other words: might we say that ‘the bunkers are the same, it’s the resorts that have gotten bigger’?


« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 03:24:09 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Thomas Dai

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2020, 03:50:30 PM »
Most bunkers are built much larger than necessary in order to look good, not to play well.
And would it also be fair to say that most bunkers on parkland golf course probably don’t even need to exist?
Atb


later edit - spelling corrected.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 03:15:11 AM by Thomas Dai »

SL_Solow

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2020, 03:52:46 PM »
Tom,  I understand the aversion to "eye candy" and the tendency to build flashy bunkers that photograph well.  By the same token I am conscious of architects like Alison who built large (and deep!) bunkers in keeping with the size of greens and the sweep of some of his fairways.  Hence my comment about generalizations.  I have seen examples where bunkers have been downsized to reduce maintenance costs and sometimes they just don't look right.  But I also have seen a lot of excess. 

Sean_A

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2020, 02:12:19 AM »
Generally, I don't think bunkers are too big or too small. Beyond placement and fitting properly into the landscape what matters is size, shape and orientation variety.

IMO the biggest problem with bunkers is archies use too many. It's easier to mess things up with lots of bunkers, especially if they are an unnatural style like pot bunkers etc.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2020, 02:32:50 AM »
Most bunkers are built much larger than necessary in order to look good, not to play well.
And would it also be fair to say that most bunkers on parkland golf course probably don’t even need to exit?
Atb


Did you miss an s in 'exist' or are you making some bizarre comment about drainage?  :)
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2020, 03:16:52 AM »
1-nil :) ..... and now corrected
atb

Kyle Harris

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2020, 07:12:22 AM »
They are so small that the angry man needs to stand outside while his niblick takes care of business.


Bu...

Nevermind.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

jeffwarne

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2020, 08:05:26 AM »
Yes they are, and too many.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

PCCraig

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2020, 08:37:53 AM »
As said above, I think it depends. As many parkland courses take out overgrown trees/forests, the bunkers can look way too small for the scale of the land.


Then again, what I can't stand is when every bunker is the same size. I don't know if it's more visually pleasing to some golfers? I think it's nice to have some variety in shapes and sizes of bunkers, especially on classic courses.
H.P.S.

Mike Hendren

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2020, 11:04:09 AM »
The genesis for this thread was a drone shot of Augusta's 18th green as well as a rare round Friday at a local course where on more than one occasion I felt like a Japanese rock gardener.


Say Augusta needed to save a little coin on maintenance.   Why not eliminate the front half of the left hand bunker at 18?  For most mortals the pitch from there while staring into the face of the remaining bunker would be dicey enough, would it not?


As for bunkering in generally, does it make sense to design strips or trenches that can be raked while standing on either side?  Or a quick drive-thu on the SandPro?  Slight sloping maintained at fairway height could effective expand collection.


Exhibit A might be the trench bunker fronting the 17th green at North Berwick's West Links.


Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Thomas Dai

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2020, 11:06:30 AM »
I’m not sure of the source of this quote for in a moment of oversight I only copied the quote itself but it’s a cracker
“Golf should be a sporting experience not a gardening experience and bunkers shouldn’t be sand gardens.”
Atb

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2020, 11:23:11 AM »
Michael H,


On uphill shots, it is sometimes necessary to extend the bunker back to the golfer more than normal to assure vision of same.  On the other hand, when the slope facing the green is steep, it may not be necessary.  My guess is ANGC falls into TD's scale for ability to be noticed category, at least to some degree.


Some other random thoughts, based solely on my experience.


In one of my first ASGCA meetings, in Dallas in 1983, one of our venues was the (now) TPC Four Seasons in Las Colinas, then just Las Colinas, an original RTJII design.  He came to lunch after we all played, eagerly hoping to be praised for the work.  I was a bit surprised at how rough the others were on him, basically saying, "I know this is Texas, but the bunkers really didn't have to be that much bigger!" 


In reality, I have heard similar complaints about at least Press Maxwell work - looking at a typical green, what you see first is the bunkers and secondly the green, etc.


Being mentored by Dick Nugent, I have fallen into the same category, at least earlier in my career.  He believe big and bold was nearly always better.  When we discussed subtlety, his reaction was usually, "bah humbug on subtlety!".  So yes, there was an era where the scale kept getting larger.  Not that this was all bad.  Scale was bigger in everything, from the width of streets to the size of houses, and I always thought it was a bit of practicality, combined with the general feelings of prosperity after WWII.


Besides, MacK built some pretty sprawling bunkers.  And many modern architects did not.  Random recollection....I saw a set of Art Hills plans and thought the bunkers looked puny and under scaled (at least in comparison to plans we drew for Dick).  I thought they didn't know how to draw plans!  But then, I saw a few courses and low and behold, they simply built bunkers smaller than Nugent tended to.


On the practicality side, given the maintenance emphasis through the 1960-70's, when golf was a similarly tough biz to now,  once power rakes came on the market, bunkers bays were designed to be raked by them - a minimum diameter of 20 feet or so.  (now down to about 16 feet for many rake models)  The grass noses were shaped for machine mowing, and that was at least a 25 foot diameter, probably more.  It still is if you want a machine to mow the banks without stopping, backing up, etc.  That alone made bunkers bigger than they had been in the Golden Age.


Now, after many bunker reduction projects, and in the realization that the green should be the main visual focus of the approach shot artistic composition, my bunker sizes have gone way down, and frankly, in nearly every case, I think the smaller bunkers have made for better designs.  Sometimes, I stand out in the fw, look at the green, and use my thumb to cover the outer portions of bunkers, well away from the greens.  Rarely do the last several feet or yards do much to enhance the composition, and hence, they are easy to fill in with grass.


When drawing plans, I have settled on a general rule (oft broken) of thumb that if a green is, say, 60 feet wide, any flanking bunker should have its outside limits <60 foot from the green.  Obviously, it varies depending on the function of the bunker, but in general, it seems to fit my eye.


End of random thoughts for the day, LOL.  Short version, yes bunkers can tend to be too big!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2020, 12:44:44 PM »
The last few posts make the essential point -- bunkers are built bigger to try to make the golf course look different than other courses.  If you stick within the confines of what Jeff describes and eliminate portions that tail away from the green, then pretty much all golf courses are going to look alike.


[Of course, if everyone makes their bunkers big and wild, those all start to look alike, too, but at higher cost, which is starting to be a problem on new designs.]


Personally, I try to use those tailing bunkers on holes with longer shots into the greens, and more dispersion.  Having a bunker come out 25 yards short of the green on a par-5 should make players wary of going for it in two, lest they leave themselves the dreaded long bunker shot.


George Thomas made the point years ago that it is only the bunker edge closest to the green that governs most play -- recovery shots wide of the green must carry that point.  He then went on to note that it would be more equitable for the bunker to be so shallow that you might putt out of it, whereas a worse [wider] miss would force you to pitch over it.

MCirba

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2020, 12:53:48 PM »
For reference, here are some of the bunkers at Pete Dye River Course at Virginia Tech.






"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2020, 12:56:41 PM »
Awhile back, maybe 10 years ago or so, I think we had a thread dedicated exclusively to pictures of tiny bunkers. It was fantastic.

PCCraig

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2020, 01:20:06 PM »
For reference, here are some of the bunkers at Pete Dye River Course at Virginia Tech.








Hmm - well if you don't like those you won't have much fun at White Bear!!  ;)
H.P.S.

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2020, 01:27:57 PM »
Discuss.


Landscape Architecture has taken over Golf Design

jeffwarne

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2020, 01:53:22 PM »
Discuss.


Landscape Architecture has taken over Golf Design


I wrote a long , similar response before(probably posted on wrong thread:)
Something to the effect of "if we remove overgrown trees, we suddenly have to enlarge bunkers?"
Too often I hear large "scale" as the reason for large bunkers, which are a nightmare for the average guy as well as maintenance and never considered by an elite player as they strike no fear-in fact opportunity. A small one will be easier to randomly avoid by a novice and a potential headache and therefore considered by the elite.
But Don' post was what I was thinking when I saw the thread
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Grant Saunders

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2020, 03:19:05 PM »
Tom,  doesn't it depend on the scale of the property and the other features?  In practice that may mean many (or most) are built out of scale but I am wary of generalities.


Making the bunker "in scale" visually is exactly what I meant -- bunkers are bigger than necessary so they will look good in the landscape.  But I doubt many architects really want players who have missed the green by 20-30 yards to be in the sand..


Scale is often talked about in regards to the features of a golf hole and how some things will just look right and others wont


I know there is a aversion to assigning formulas in respect to golf design, but is there not some approximate ratio that seems to be evident throughout many of the classics relating to bunker size/sand area compared to say putting surface?


I get that there will always be exceptions that disprove any rule Im just asking if something like the theory of Phi (not necessarily Phi though, just an example) could be used as a starting point

Peter Pallotta

Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2020, 03:38:11 PM »
Discuss.
Landscape Architecture has taken over Golf Design
I don’t know if this is true, but if Don ‘Straight Talking’ Mahaffey says so, I suspect that it is. But I wonder if our own generation can properly/fully answer the ‘whys’ and ‘how’ of it all. We have some historical insights & long term perspectives & retrospective analyses of the socio-economic forces that helped shape and define the first Golden Age; maybe only decades from now will they have the same kind of insights and perspectives into this second golden age.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 03:39:55 PM by Peter Pallotta »