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Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Green Reading Books
« on: November 16, 2020, 12:06:39 PM »
Now that the Masters is over, played with a prohibition on green reading books that map the contours of the greens, what is your conclusion?
I would favor the elimination of greens books everywhere.  It would speed up play--and eliminate the dull sight of a player studying his book for long periods of time.  And I have always thought that green reading was an integral skill of golf, and that these books should be eliminated as an artificial aid.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2020, 12:08:33 PM »
I can't believe they were ever allowed. Reading the green is a huge part of the game.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2020, 12:14:01 PM »
I agree here.


Letting these guys play with green books seems the same as letting them use a weather app to gauge the wind direction and speed in real time. 

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2020, 12:20:06 PM »
I can't believe they were ever allowed. Reading the green is a huge part of the game.
Agreed! That's a talent in of itself and is an inherent part of the game. It was bad enough when they allowed the use of yardage books, but greens books should be outlawed. If between the player and caddie the correct line and speed of a putt can't be consistently determined with accuracy you got problems. Perhaps the PGA Tour feels green books helps speed the pace of play, but I've yet to see evidence of it. I still see caddies and players having protracted debates even with the help of the books.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 12:25:27 PM by Mike Bodo »
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2020, 12:26:35 PM »
How did they start.  I think it was in college golf, where the host university has a huge home field advantage.  If you looked at one company's list it was mostly where college events were held.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2020, 12:29:31 PM »
I'd go a step further, modify the Advice rule to include caddies and allow range finders to supplement the hole location sheet.  If this doesn't speed up the game, a game clock might do it if paired with good standards and a fair Committee review in dispensing penalties.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2020, 12:32:16 PM »
General slope only should be allowed. For instance, a few lines signaling that a green slopes AWAY toward the back versus TOWARD the fairway should be acceptable. Basically, a "notebook" should be fine, IMHO. Anything with significant detail should be banned. Locations of mounts, tiers, etc. should be acceptable. Absolutely nothing that is created with lasers.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2020, 01:36:38 PM »
Sagebrush's yardage book had a blank page except for the green outline for each hole, in addition to the regular hole diagram.
Each trip added three hole locations and dozens of arrows. Over a few years it got pretty darn good.  [size=78%]  [/size]

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2020, 01:48:07 PM »
I've played events with the TOUR green reading books. It's honestly cheating, especially after learning AimPoint. You can pretty much know exactly where the putt's going to go before you even walk up to the green if you've done your homework right!
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2020, 02:27:27 PM »
Let's see the tour go no caddies and no greens books. Let them have the robo-carts, a range finder and a 3X5 card for some notes. It should speed up play and we would get a chance to see who is capable of not having all of their crutches. Would probably increase the odds of Tiger getting a few more wins down the home stretch of his career.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2020, 02:53:45 PM »
agreed the PGA tours are less attractive to watch due to the constant book reading, the Masters has this right 100000%
It's all about the golf!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2020, 03:03:34 PM »
How can someone argue for yardage aids (of any kind) but against green books?

David Wuthrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2020, 03:20:50 PM »
Outlaw the books!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2020, 03:31:27 PM »
Not looking for purity, only faster play and bringing some credibility to the often noted objective that golf is a game of skill, which to me it means that of the player, not of his bag-toting multi-purpose consultant.  Given that most courses have relevant distances depicted on irrigation heads and range finders/GPS devices are allowed in most state and some USGA events, that cat is out of the bag.  Letting players use these ubiquitous devices to more quickly ascertain public information may not be consistent with pre-Nicklaus golf, but I don't see much of an argument here.  Of course, we will never reduce the role of the caddie back to its roots.  I do believe that caddies as they have evolved to this point can make a large difference at all levels of play.  Faldo seems to agree as he was lobbying on air for Fannie to be inducted into golf's Hall of Fame.

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2020, 03:42:59 PM »
I do believe that caddies as they have evolved to this point can make a large difference at all levels of play.  Faldo seems to agree as he was lobbying on air for Fannie to be inducted into golf's Hall of Fame.
I agree with your first sentence, but do I really want to see Caddies in the Golf Hall of Fame, as Faldo lobbied? That's a tough one. Are there caddies in there now?
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2020, 03:57:53 PM »
How can someone argue for yardage aids (of any kind) but against green books?


They are going to get the yardage correct anyway, so using a laser just saves time. The green reading book is not the same IMO
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2020, 04:00:28 PM »
Picking up on Pete's comment and playing devil's advocate, how does using a greens' book advantage a player more than a member who has played enough rounds on his home course to have memorized the greens.  He really isn't reading the greens anymore, he is just executing.  That is why so many members think that their home course's greens are easy, they don't have to read them anymore.  Yet there are always better putters.  I understand the skill in reading greens, it is one of the reasons players rarely win the first time they see a course

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2020, 04:01:44 PM »
Sagebrush's yardage book had a blank page except for the green outline for each hole, in addition to the regular hole diagram.
Each trip added three hole locations and dozens of arrows. Over a few years it got pretty darn good.  [size=78%]  [/size]


Wow, can I see that?
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2020, 04:02:04 PM »
How can someone argue for yardage aids (of any kind) but against green books?


They are going to get the yardage correct anyway, so using a laser just saves time. The green reading book is not the same IMO


I don't think lasers would save much time.  High level players are always looking at other numbers (front edge, yardage to cover a slope, etc.) in addition to the number to a flag.  Even with a laser, they will still be looking into a book for those numbers, which would negate some of the speed to get the pin number. 

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2020, 06:11:52 PM »
How can someone argue for yardage aids (of any kind) but against green books?


They are going to get the yardage correct anyway, so using a laser just saves time. The green reading book is not the same IMO


apples and oranges
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2020, 06:15:54 PM »
How can someone argue for yardage aids (of any kind) but against green books?


They are going to get the yardage correct anyway, so using a laser just saves time. The green reading book is not the same IMO


lasers are not just for the flag


I don't think lasers would save much time.  High level players are always looking at other numbers (front edge, yardage to cover a slope, etc.) in addition to the number to a flag.  Even with a laser, they will still be looking into a book for those numbers, which would negate some of the speed to get the pin number.
It's all about the golf!

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2020, 06:16:47 PM »
They should be utterly cryeth down!   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2020, 06:17:48 PM »
Let's see the tour go no caddies and no greens books. Let them have the robo-carts, a range finder and a 3X5 card for some notes. It should speed up play and we would get a chance to see who is capable of not having all of their crutches. Would probably increase the odds of Tiger getting a few more wins down the home stretch of his career.


Only local caddies and no one over 17.
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2020, 06:38:27 PM »
The pace of play before the books was excruciating. If possible it’s worse after the books.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 06:40:26 PM by Tim Martin »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green Reading Books
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2020, 06:41:30 PM »
I don't see why caddies got brought into this conversation.  They are a big part of the tradition of the game and a great resource to their partner as a sounding board.

But as has been said, knowing a specific yardage to a pin from the fairway, with so many other things to factor in... is apples and oranges compared to having a very detailed contour map of a green that shows an accurate path from point A to B on a green.