My Main Takeaway from Houston

[John Kavanaugh]

At any time in this process was it said that Houston needed its own Torrey Pines?  That is actually a very good thing for a city.

[Thomas Dai]

As I said on the other related thread, this Houston Open has been the most interesting golf played in the USA I’ve seen shown on TV so far this year. I watched it to the very end, something I've not done with US TV mens pro golf for a considerable time.

It was nice to watch players need to position the ball in the right areas from the tee to get a potential reward. And if a poorly thought-out or mishit shot was played suffer the consequences unless an exceptional next shot was then played. The shot options and choices made when greens were missed were interesting too. While some wonderful recovery shots were played there were some which the player concerned would probably best like to forget.

A question if I may ..... if the event had been held in its usual position in the tour schedule rather than in Nov would the course have likely played differently?

atb

[David_Elvins]

You should have those conditions for the member-guest and the club championship.  Insisting on them every day will be the death of golf.

Not to sidetrack, but IMO, any club that ramps up maintenance/presentation on a single weekend for 40-50 non members has its priorities wrong. We can disagree/argue about what's the best sustainable daily course maintenance but whatever it is, it should be for the members who pay dues.

Would have thought that good conditions for member/guest would be very high on the list of what members want.

You'd have to be a pretentious little prick who lives their life according to what their friends think to be that guy.

Sure, but I am not going to get into a detailed discussion as to what percentage of private club members that is.

[Ronald Montesano]

"You dudes in power got it all wrong. The people paying to play should get the best conditioning. "


What is best conditioning? Be clear, be accurate, be direct.


"It grows tiring playing during prep."

What is "it"? Golem? My precious?


"I don't know anyone who insists on perfect conditions every day. That is a ridiculous cop out unworthy of your knowledge of the game."


It seems like you did in your first thread comment. How is what the architect said, a cop-out statement?


"Where is the harm in it pushing your mental and physical limits?"


Not everyone comes to golf for the same reasons. If you join a club of 20, or 100, or 250 John Kavanaughs, who think the same, play the same, etc., then you and your clones can insist on pushing mental and physical limits.


"The ODG"s didn't design courses to be maintained differently one week a year."


Did you attend a seance of late?


"You'd have to be a pretentious little prick who lives their life according to what their friends think to be that guy."


Ironic.

[John Kavanaugh]

"You dudes in power got it all wrong. The people paying to play should get the best conditioning. "


What is best conditioning? Be clear, be accurate, be direct.


"It grows tiring playing during prep.[size=78%]"[/size]

What is "it"? Golem? My precious?


"I don't know anyone who insists on perfect conditions every day. That is a ridiculous cop out unworthy of your knowledge of the game.[size=78%]"[/size]


It seems like you did in your first thread comment. How is what the architect said, a cop-out statement?


"Where is the harm in it pushing your mental and physical limits?[size=78%]"[/size]


Not everyone comes to golf for the same reasons. If you join a club of 20, or 100, or 250 John Kavanaughs, who think the same, play the same, etc., then you and your clones can insist on pushing mental and physical limits.


"The ODG"s didn't design courses to be maintained differently one week a year.[size=78%]"[/size]


Did you attend a seance of late?


"You'd have to be a pretentious little prick who lives their life according to what their friends think to be that guy.[size=78%]"[/size]


Ironic.

Please reformat and ask one question.

[Tom_Doak]

A few questions/comments:

- It looked like most of the pins were tucked away behind bunkers and in small sections of the green.  Are the middle of the greens more elastic in general to accommodating everyday play?
- It didn't look like anyone went for the green on 17, do you know if it was discussed to use shorter tees to tempt them?
- Really liked the 18th green site with the homage to the Valley of Sin at TOC and the unique triangle shape (at least it appeared that way).  How did that all come together?

1.  The greens are all different, but not many have big flat spots in the middle - in fact, early on we tried to come up with ideas to make the middle of the green hard to play for, because that's the good player's usual fallback when in trouble.  So lits of greens have a crown or fallaway through the center where it is easy to wind up on the wrong side.


2.  We built 17 with tees from 320 yards down to 280 so that they could move the tee up one day, but the Tour staff did not consider doing that, for whatever reason.  I didn't push them on it this week, but I will do so this offseason, because if they're not going to go there I would like to try to figure out some other way to make the hole more interesting off the tee.  Nearly everyone laid back to the same area all week, except Dustin Johnson, who drove it up left of the green Friday and Saturday.


3.  The 18th green is based on the 3rd green at Royal Melbourne (West), the opening hole for the course as played in the Presidents Cup.  That hole plays 170 yards shorter and more downhill, so the fallaway green is easier to see.  We intended a very difficult 18th to balance out birdie opportunities at 13-14-15-16-17, but with the Tour calling 14 a par-4 and not using the forward tee on 17, the finish presented differently than what I had expected.  Even so, Ortiz's approach shots on 16 and 18 were special.

[Philippe Binette]

Trying to have the greens at 11-12 every day is ruining golf.... definitely true


I don't have the numbers, but I'm pretty sure it's a ratio like:


150 000 $ / year to keep the greens at 9,5 daily
add 150 000 $ / year to have them at 10,5 daily
add 150 000 $ / year to have them at 11 daily
and so one for every 0,5 feet on the stimp...

[Amol Yajnik]

A question if I may ..... if the event had been held in its usual position in the tour schedule rather than in Nov would the course have likely played differently?

atb

FWIW, the Houston tournament is going to be in the fall for years to come unless something radically changes with the schedule.  When Valero extended their contract to sponsor the San Antonio event, they wrote it into the contract for that tournament to be on the week preceding the Masters.  That bumped the Houston event to the fall, which is a real shame because it's going to compete with football and not get as many top players as they did this year under the normal schedule.

[Garland Bayley]

You should have those conditions for the member-guest and the club championship.  Insisting on them every day will be the death of golf.

Not to sidetrack, but IMO, any club that ramps up maintenance/presentation on a single weekend for 40-50 non members has its priorities wrong. We can disagree/argue about what's the best sustainable daily course maintenance but whatever it is, it should be for the members who pay dues.

Would have thought that good conditions for member/guest would be very high on the list of what members want.

At least at my club, some players in member guest don't have the skills to handle amped up green speeds leading to 6 1/2 hour rounds. You can't convince me that is good for either our club or for golf in general.

[Will Lozier]

I don't know anyone who insists on perfect conditions every day. That is a ridiculous cop out unworthy of your knowledge of the game.

I honestly can't figure out if you are a serious @$$hole with far too much time on your hands...or Pat Mucci in disguise sans real inherent knowledge of GCA.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't know anyone who insists on perfect conditions every day. That is a ridiculous cop out unworthy of your knowledge of the game.

I honestly can't figure out if you are a serious @$$hole with far too much time on your hands...or Pat Mucci in disguise sans real inherent knowledge of GCA.

Everyone I know plays several times a week and have led successful lives. It would be insane to expect perfection every time out. It's just not how the real world works.

[Mike Bodo]

FWIW, the Houston tournament is going to be in the fall for years to come unless something radically changes with the schedule. When Valero extended their contract to sponsor the San Antonio event, they wrote it into the contract for that tournament to be on the week preceding the Masters.  That bumped the Houston event to the fall, which is a real shame because it's going to compete with football and not get as many top players as they did this year under the normal schedule.

I agree 100% with your assessment! I don't care for the TPC course the Valero tournament is played on or the vast majority of TPC courses, for that matter. I'd much rather see the Houston tournament in Valero's spot, but they were smart to lock the date up on the calendar when they did. At some point the PGA Tour needs to consider having an entire TX swing, much the way they have the CA/AZ and FL legs to start the season. May would probably be the month to do it between the Masters and PGA Championship.

[Drew Maliniak]

Takeaway: More par 3s and more par 5s.



On the par 3s:

Five par 3s added fun, drama and carnage, especially the short 15th. And I loved the 2nd when they had the front pin and 9 with the "road hole" back left pin, although I think the right pin on 9 had the most "others."


On the par 5s:

The 16th at MP played incredibly hard for a 520-560 par 5. While the 16th at Sawgrass might be a more "fun" version, the 16th at MP works. You saw Spieth dunk it right, but many in the field bailed out 30 yards left. And I think Hideki layed up every round, but hit driver off the tee, which might be just odd.


If using MP as a test case, the week-in-week out tour courses (think TPC Louisiana or Southwind) really need to:


Promote courses with 6 par 3s, 6 par 5s, 6 par 4s, I think it would be much exciting for fans. And as a matter of viewing, you can see more shots. (I do wonder if the TV camera people logistics would improve. I hate just watching putts.)


It's not surprising that you want a seat on the 15th at Augusta.     

[William_G]

I don't know anyone who insists on perfect conditions every day. That is a ridiculous cop out unworthy of your knowledge of the game.

I honestly can't figure out if you are a serious @$$hole with far too much time on your hands...or Pat Mucci in disguise sans real inherent knowledge of GCA.

Everyone I know plays several times a week and have led successful lives. It would be insane to expect perfection every time out. It's just not how the real world works.

yes

[John Kirk]

Hi,

I watched a couple hours worth.  It was very interesting, using the various theories for how to challenge the players without undue length.  267 was the winning score.

On this list of player statistics for the tournament, there seems to be good correlation with driving accuracy, greens on regulation and putts per GIR.  There does not appear to be a strong correlation with driving distance.

 https://www.espn.com/golf/leaderboard

Congratulations to Tom Doak, Don Mahaffey and Mike Nuzzo for their collaboration.  I will look forward to next year's tournament.

I talked to Carlos Ortiz once, at Pumpkin Ridge in 2014.  He had just finished his third round, and had bogeyed the par 3 15th.  I was right next to him on the 15th tee that day, and heard him and his caddie trying to decipher the wind, which will blow a bit into your face on the tee, even though the prevailing summer breeze is downwind.  He hit his tee shot a yard over the green, and made 4.  Afterwards I went over and talked to his caddie at the putting green, and as I said "15" Ortiz was very attentive.  I told them it was a downwind shot, and to ignore the wind in your face on the tee.  The next day he hit the middle of the green, and won the tournament by one.
     

[Terry Lavin]

I loved what I watched and have been interested in the gca discussion. It’s a Tom Doak home run, without a doubt. He and his team straddled the line that few, if any, have successfully done before.


This could be the platform for other venues that are viewed as too short, too flat or too old-school to host a PGA tour event.


Congrats to Tom and his team and to Don and his crew. Epic success.

[Peter Pallotta]

I loved what I watched and have been interested in the gca discussion. It’s a Tom Doak home run, without a doubt. He and his team straddled the line that few, if any, have successfully done before.

This could be the platform for other venues that are viewed as too short, too flat or too old-school to host a PGA tour event.

Congrats to Tom and his team and to Don and his crew. Epic success.

Very well and succinctly put. And, having read here for years about the demands the Tour makes of hosting courses, it was great to see that the greens could be so interesting/challenging from a designer and golfer’s perspective while still being entirely ‘pinnable’ from the Tour’s perspective.

[Tom_Doak]

I should mention at this point that while Mike N ran the job day to day and Don M was the contractor, my three associates (Brian, Brian and Eric) plus Blake Conant shaped all the greens, as they have for all of my courses the past 18 years.


They are all out doing consulting and restoration work this fall but I got more texts from them last weekend than ever before, as they, too, were mesmerized by seeing what happened to the pros' shots landing on their greens.


Also, while lots of guys played well, it was really fun to see Brooks Koepka dialed in like he was playing a major those last two days.


I was out on the course the whole time so I missed the coverage of the event, but someone sent me a wuote from Padraig Harrington that he "much preferred playing a hard course set up a bit easy, than an easier course set up too hard."  I had never thought of it like that but I like the sentiment.

[Don Mahaffey]

As Tom clarifies above, the RGD talent shaped all the greens and other areas where their artistic shaping talents were needed. I believe they were working with a little more constraint than normal as they all knew that the tour would not use any hole locations where slope exceeded 2%. I get a kick out of so many talking about the sloping and undulating greens. From a pure % metric, I'll bet these have as little average slope as any greens Tom and RGD have built. Yet, they were viewed as challenging...Tom and his guys nailed it.
I also got a kick out of listening to PGA radio where they described the greens as concrete hard. Two of my staff, Ryan Mahaffey and Connor Dougherty, collected all the green's data during the tournament. Stimp, and firmness, morning and evening from Sunday morning thru Sunday morning.  These greens never got as firm as tour average.


It all about the design of the entire hole and especially the greens complexes and Tom and Brooks with input and talent from the RGD design crew that made it work so well. Players had to hit shots to win, not just drives and putts. The course tested every facet of their game and it was great entertainment.


Our job was to make sure their design functioned and we think we did OK with that too.


My takeaway from Memorial Park is the golf course is a perfect fit with the city of Houston.

[Pete Lavallee]

Brand new greens are always a little firmer until you build up some thatch. What type of grass was used on them?

[Tom_Doak]

Brand new greens are always a little firmer until you build up some thatch. What type of grass was used on them?

We went back and forth with the Tour over which ultradwarf to use on the greens, that I can't remember which won out!


I know new greens are generally firmer, but as Don M said earlier, they were still less firm than the Tour average.  I do think the lack of thatch made it harder to spin a ball back on the green, and it just dawned on me that could be separate from the firmness underneath. 




Brooks tried to hit a low spinny wedge shot to the back pin on the 5th hole Sunday - a shot he called nearly two years ago! - and the ball took a ridiculous sideways bounce when it hi, maybe due to the lack of thatch.  The look on his face was priceless!  He had to explain to his playing partners what he had been trying to do.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Could Brook’s explanation be construed as giving advice?

[Tom_Doak]

Could Brook’s explanation be construed as giving advice?

They had all hit their shots to the green, so probably not.  I wasn't quite close enough to hear the conversation - he just hit such an unusual-looking shot and then made such a face that Tyrrell Hatton wondered what it was about.

[Buck Wolter]

Tom- The Get a Grip Podcast (Max Homa and Shane Bacon) did a pretty long segment of Max's thoughts on Houston -- he raved about it even though he didn't play great. (They talk about it about 55 minutes in) -- worth a listen on his thoughts on the role the rough played. He also said #15 might be his favorite par 3 ever!


https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-43-masters/id1492360046?i=1000497881500

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I noticed during coverage, it seemed there were very few fairway bunkers on the course.  After reviewing the aerial it looks like there are only 3 on the entire course, (as opposed to 16 greenside bunkers). Was this a function of the clay-like soil or perhaps a tip from Brooks that fairway bunkers aren't much of a deterrent to pros, or perhaps why build many if they can just hit over them?

Thanks!