My Main Takeaway from Houston

[Tom_Doak]

it was fun watching many of the best players in the world tackle our course this week.  It made them hit drives in the fairway, hit careful approaches, make difficult recoveries around the greens, and putt well, too.  The maintenance meld was perfect and kudos to Jason Harsh and his crew, with Don Mahaffey's crew assisting.


I was invited to dinner on Friday night with a couple of young Tour players, and as part of the conversation about the setup, I mentioned that this was how things used to be:  you'd take a good old course with slopey greens that were 9 or 9 1/2 on the Stimpmeter, dial them up to 12.5 and let the rough grow, and the same course would provide a reasonable challenge for the pros.  (It's really the only way to make a course "playable for the members, but challenging for the pros," as everyone always promises but fails to accomplish.)


But the problem, I said, is that if this course was a private club for Jim Crane, instead of a muni, he'd want the greens 12.5 every day - and then I'd be forced to choose between making the course too hard for the members, or not challenging enough for the pros, because there is no slack in the maintenance to take advantage of.


Everyday green speeds of 11 and 12 have made a mess of golf, IMO.  The game was plenty fun before that was possible.  Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean you should.


P.S.  Someday I'd love to do another tournament course where play is more limited, so we could build them the small greens they crave.


P.P.S.  Watching Koepka shoot 30 on the front this morning was a real highlight.  Just like we drew it up.  I wonder if they can find a green jacket that fits him?

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm a member of a couple of clubs that hold professional events. You dudes in power got it all wrong. The people paying to play should get the best conditioning. The sticks ain't going back to folding shirts if their greens are slow.

[Joe Hancock]

I'm a member of a couple of clubs that hold professional events. You dudes in power got it all wrong. The people paying to play should get the best conditioning. The sticks ain't going back to folding shirts if their greens are slow.

I think TD outlined the “best” conditioning.....9-10 on a daily basis, speed it up for tournaments.

[John Kavanaugh]

It grows tiring playing during prep. I’m sure that at the end of a night a sous chef gets full but I doubt he was ever hungry.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm a member of a couple of clubs that hold professional events. You dudes in power got it all wrong. The people paying to play should get the best conditioning. The sticks ain't going back to folding shirts if their greens are slow.

"Give me unsustainable conditions because I deserve the best!"


You should have those conditions for the member-guest and the club championship.  Insisting on them every day will be the death of golf.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't know anyone who insists on perfect conditions every day. That is a ridiculous cop out unworthy of your knowledge of the game.

[Andrew Harvie]

I'm a member of a couple of clubs that hold professional events. You dudes in power got it all wrong. The people paying to play should get the best conditioning. The sticks ain't going back to folding shirts if their greens are slow.

There's no basis to the claim that the faster greens are "better" conditioning.

[Matt_Cohn]

Tom, did you create specific less-sloped areas to be used for hole locations at tournament speeds? Or to ask it a different way, are there hole locations intended for everyday use that can't be used at tournament speeds? Or is it more like Harding Park—overall modest slopes that "come alive" at 12+?

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm a member of a couple of clubs that hold professional events. You dudes in power got it all wrong. The people paying to play should get the best conditioning. The sticks ain't going back to folding shirts if their greens are slow.

There's no basis to the claim that the faster greens are "better" conditioning.

No, but they are more fun every damn day of the week. Just like firm fairways. Everything thing tuned up in life is more fun. A great golf round is a thousand tiny seconds of exhilaration wrapped around 1/6th of a boring ass day. Where is the harm in it pushing your mental and physical limits?

[David_Elvins]

Everyday green speeds of 11 and 12 have made a mess of golf, IMO.

Over-measuring and over-reporting is as much as a problem as the speed imo. 


One of my clubs has very tilted greens and only the super knows the stimp reading.  Players, including visiting pros in tournaments regularly overestimate the stimp readings by at least 2 feet. 


If it was advertised that the greens regularly rolled at 8 and were at 10 for tournaments, its possible people may be looking to "fix" this, but its perfect for the greens, no one is breaking par.

[JMEvensky]

You should have those conditions for the member-guest and the club championship.  Insisting on them every day will be the death of golf.

Not to sidetrack, but IMO, any club that ramps up maintenance/presentation on a single weekend for 40-50 non members has its priorities wrong. We can disagree/argue about what's the best sustainable daily course maintenance but whatever it is, it should be for the members who pay dues.

[Peter Pallotta]

My takeaways - the rough seemed just right for a tournament, and the (now small) number of bunkers ideal for pros and amateurs alike.

[David_Elvins]

You should have those conditions for the member-guest and the club championship.  Insisting on them every day will be the death of golf.

Not to sidetrack, but IMO, any club that ramps up maintenance/presentation on a single weekend for 40-50 non members has its priorities wrong. We can disagree/argue about what's the best sustainable daily course maintenance but whatever it is, it should be for the members who pay dues.

Would have thought that good conditions for member/guest would be very high on the list of what members want.

[John Kavanaugh]

The ODG"s didn't design courses to be maintained differently one week a year.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Everyday green speeds of 11 and 12 have made a mess of golf, IMO.

Over-measuring and over-reporting is as much as a problem as the speed imo. 


One of my clubs has very tilted greens and only the super knows the stimp reading.  Players, including visiting pros in tournaments regularly overestimate the stimp readings by at least 2 feet. 


If it was advertised that the greens regularly rolled at 8 and were at 10 for tournaments, its possible people may be looking to "fix" this, but its perfect for the greens, no one is breaking par.

^^^This. Stimp inflation! I've heard many conversations at my course (higher-end resort) saying "The greens have to be 14 or something!" while they were actually low 11s or less. I know because I stimped them. Anything over 10.5 is perceived as very fast by most players. Thus if you think our greens are 14 because your home greens are "stimping 12" but are really 10, there ya go.


I personally have the most fun at high 9s to mid 10s and our greens aren't even that slopey.

[John Kavanaugh]

You should have those conditions for the member-guest and the club championship.  Insisting on them every day will be the death of golf.

Not to sidetrack, but IMO, any club that ramps up maintenance/presentation on a single weekend for 40-50 non members has its priorities wrong. We can disagree/argue about what's the best sustainable daily course maintenance but whatever it is, it should be for the members who pay dues.

Would have thought that good conditions for member/guest would be very high on the list of what members want.

You'd have to be a pretentious little prick who lives their life according to what their friends think to be that guy.

[Mike Bodo]

TD, kudos to you Brooks, the superintendent at Memorial Park and the entire maintenance staff for putting on a first-rate tournament! From a television spectator point of view it was a lot of fun to watch, as you never knew what to expect. The course offered a great combo of risk and reward. If you put your ball in the right spots off the tee and were accurate with your approach shots, there were good scores to be had out there, as evidence the past two days. If you were wild or went flag hunting when you shouldn't, you were fairly penalized. A fair test of golf is all any tour player can ask and Memorial Park delivered that.

Props to Carlos Ortiz for his performance today. It was an impressive display of golf he put on and the list of "names" he beat was top-notch. I hope this is a springboard for even bigger and better things for him, as he seems like a really good guy.

I look forward to seeing what the course becomes in a few years once its grown in and matures and see how it plays in windier conditions. Chapeau!

[Rob Marshall]

I'm a member of a couple of clubs that hold professional events. You dudes in power got it all wrong. The people paying to play should get the best conditioning. The sticks ain't going back to folding shirts if their greens are slow.

"Give me unsustainable conditions because I deserve the best!"


You should have those conditions for the member-guest and the club championship.  Insisting on them every day will be the death of golf.

Why would you want conditions for the club championship that you never see the rest of the year?.


Tom B,
My experience is the opposite. I’ll hear our greens are a 7 from other members and I’ll stimp them at 9. They have no clue. IMO maintaining greens at 10 day in and day out would be perfect. Problem is that with rain and humidity changing daily it’s not really possible.

[Tom_Doak]

The ODG"s didn't design courses to be maintained differently one week a year.

They absolutely expected conditions and green speeds to vary considerably during the year, since they had much less control over them.  So clubs scheduled big events in the seasonnwhen the turf was less stressed out and higher green speeds were possible.


And it is not a cop out to say many US clubs want very fast greens every day.  I know a couple of superintendents who insisted on putting the everyday green speed expectation in their contracts - partly so that their bosses couldn't keep raising the bar!

[William_G]

looked like a bermuda course I would enjoy playing on a daily basis regardless of the green speed as opined by the author of theis thread, well done by the crew, TD and Koepka

and I'm not a bermuda lover as Ortiz obviously is


PS. Why not be more presidential in your victory TD?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, did you create specific less-sloped areas to be used for hole locations at tournament speeds? Or to ask it a different way, are there hole locations intended for everyday use that can't be used at tournament speeds? Or is it more like Harding Park—overall modest slopes that "come alive" at 12+?

It was our original intent to have some hole locations at 2% for the Tour, and others at 3% for regular play, but it's very hard to do when you have even bigger slopes in between - you tend to make the 2% spots bigger instead. 


They are certainly more complicated than Harding Park.  I doubt the greens are boring at 9 or 10, but you would have to ask the regular players, because I have yet to see them at that speed myself.

[Tom_Doak]

PS. Why not be more presidential in your victory TD?

My point was only that I wish we could build courses that were set up like this more often.


It seemed like the tournament provided a good opportunity to make this particular point, apart from some trolling.  I've never been much of a politician, though - and the term Presidential has kinda lost meaning lately anyway.

[William_G]

PS. Why not be more presidential in your victory TD?

My point was only that I wish we could build courses that were set up like this more often.


It seemed like the tournament provided a good opportunity to make this particular point, apart from some trolling.  I've never been much of a politician, though - and the term Presidential has kinda lost meaning lately anyway.

well then stick with the point, I think everyone liked it, don't get caught up in minutiae

[John Kavanaugh]

Just don't start punching down when the bright lights of celebrity make it difficult to look up. You've built one hell of a career doing quite the opposite. I wish there was some way to know what a young Tom Doak would have said about Memorial Park in the first Confidential Guide.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Congrats on a great event, I enjoyed watching the coverage and seeing these guys use a bit of restraint instead of just firing at every pin with impunity. The course looks terrific and was for a change was nice to see the pros challenged without resorting to high rough, narrow fairways, a sea of fairway bunkers, and frequent pitch outs. 

A few questions/comments:

- It looked like most of the pins were tucked away behind bunkers and in small sections of the green.  Are the middle of the greens more elastic in general to accommodating everyday play?
- It didn't look like anyone went for the green on 17, do you know if it was discussed to use shorter tees to tempt them?
- Really liked the 18th green site with the homage to the Valley of Sin at TOC and the unique triangle shape (at least it appeared that way).  How did that all come together?
- Overall the course really seemed to espouse GCA values of plenty of room to play off the tee and precision near the greens.  Other than ANGC and Pebble I can't think of other venues on tour that do this.