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Scott_Burroughs

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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2020, 09:40:37 AM »
When I was a member at Musgrove Mill I played Raleigh on my way down. I loved the course then and it looks amazing now. They always had fast greens and excellent playing surfaces. Ross used the rolling hills and routed the course using the and to perfection. John McConnell under promised and over performed.


I had not heard of Pure Eclipse Bent. If they are indeed the first course to use the grass, I will be interested to see how it works in the heat of August.


Ran gave the course a 6 in the latest Confidential Guide. I think it was a good score. Curious if it would go up now.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 09:46:54 AM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2020, 10:05:17 AM »

Kyle Franz oversaw the $5 million restoration, which began in February.

“We closely followed Kyle Franz’ plan and vision,” McConnell Golf President and CEO John McConnell said. “It’s going to be better than any of us ever anticipated. I’m just amazed at (Franz’) artistic ability and how the course has turned out. RCC greens are well-known as being very demanding and I am highly confident that our reputation will remain in place.”


https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2020/10/29/photos-of-renovated-raleigh-country-club.html
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 10:08:00 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mark_Fine

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2020, 10:59:15 AM »
You know you have been on this site too long when you see courses that have been renovated or restored being renovated or restored yet again  ;D :o

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2020, 12:58:55 PM »
You know you have been on this site too long when you see courses that have been renovated or restored being renovated or restored yet again  ;D :o


Right, Rich Mandel did an nice job a decade ago in bringing the course back to life.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2020, 02:36:04 PM »
I would venture to say that Richard Mandell is an authority on Ross as he wrote quite a book on Ross with an incredible amount of research.  I know that this new renovation looks good but presuming Ross did in fact design the course would it have looked like this under Ross' design?

Mark_Fine

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2020, 03:10:55 PM »
Tommy,
I played the course before Rich made his changes.  Isn’t it strange that a course is brought back to life and just ten years later it is on life support and needs another resuscitation?

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2020, 03:49:29 PM »

Mark,


It wasn't on life support this time.  I think this was just something McConnell wanted...maybe after playing Mid Pines/Pine Needles' renovations.  The course is now long enough to hold a 'big' tournament, as well, so that might be part of it.  Maybe an Amateur or something.  Or even move the Rex Hospital Open (Korn Ferry event) from CC Wakefield (also a McConnell course) to Raleigh CC to test it.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 03:53:19 PM by Scott_Burroughs »

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2020, 05:46:13 PM »

Mark,


It wasn't on life support this time.  I think this was just something McConnell wanted...maybe after playing Mid Pines/Pine Needles' renovations.  The course is now long enough to hold a 'big' tournament, as well, so that might be part of it.  Maybe an Amateur or something.  Or even move the Rex Hospital Open (Korn Ferry event) from CC Wakefield (also a McConnell course) to Raleigh CC to test it.
This is correct; Raleigh CC was terrific before Franz started.

I am not a McConnell member, so I get nowhere by praising him or the organization.  The McConnell courses are just pleasures to play; the conditions are superior in every respect, and the attention to detail on the properties is amazing.  I'll hope to see RCC sooner than later.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mark_Fine

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2020, 06:50:47 PM »
A.G.,
I just watched the video.  I hate judging courses from photos but does the course look like Ross to you?  How did Rich miss the mark by so much in the first restoration or renovation (whatever they are calling it)?  That would surprise me as Rich does his homework.  Looks like a beautiful NEW golf course to me. 


Note:  Remember in that one thread I talked about the "patina" being lost on classic golf courses.  Does anyone else here feel that many of the redos these days are all starting to look the same?  The allure of the "new" is very powerful and overrated.  Just like an old vintage rifle or a classic Fender guitar, if you polish it all up, you are not only removing much of the history but all the old stories that go with it.  Just something to ponder. 

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2020, 07:15:26 PM »
I am not sure the bunkers look very Ross like. I agree that many off the new courses and renovations tend to have a similar look. Raleigh is McConnell's home club. He takes very good care of the course. It wasn't on life support. I am sure McConnell just wanted to make it better. Like I said he overperforms.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mike Bodo

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2020, 07:55:50 PM »
Isn’t it strange that a course is brought back to life and just ten years later it is on life support and needs another resuscitation?
Sounds similar to Aronomink. Ron Prichard did what many thought was a great restoration of Ross' course in 2001 only for it to be redone again 15 yrs. later by Gil Hanse. WTH!?


Having said that, the course looks amazing!
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 07:58:40 PM by Mike Bodo »
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Jason Thurman

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2020, 10:32:18 PM »
I've not played Raleigh, but always been interested in it from afar. I didn't see Richard's work there, but I've seen it at other courses and presume it was excellent.


The video looks excellent to me though. You can fairly say it doesn't look "Ross-ish," but you can't deny the handsomeness of those Mackenzian bunkers in this rolling pinehill landscape.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2020, 06:22:32 AM »
Isn’t it strange that a course is brought back to life and just ten years later it is on life support and needs another resuscitation?
Sounds similar to Aronomink. Ron Prichard did what many thought was a great restoration of Ross' course in 2001 only for it to be redone again 15 yrs. later by Gil Hanse. WTH!?


Having said that, the course looks amazing!


I have thought the same thing, many times. Seems like many architects have a "version" of Ross that they try to re-create. Some have past photos & aerials that aid in the direction, specifically Aronimink. Gil's work looks much more like the old photos, but how did it get to be Prichard's version & considered restoration? (I don't know that answer; were the aerials not available in 2001?)
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2020, 08:09:02 AM »
A.G.,
I just watched the video.  I hate judging courses from photos but does the course look like Ross to you?  How did Rich miss the mark by so much in the first restoration or renovation (whatever they are calling it)?  That would surprise me as Rich does his homework.  Looks like a beautiful NEW golf course to me. 


Note:  Remember in that one thread I talked about the "patina" being lost on classic golf courses.  Does anyone else here feel that many of the redos these days are all starting to look the same?  The allure of the "new" is very powerful and overrated.  Just like an old vintage rifle or a classic Fender guitar, if you polish it all up, you are not only removing much of the history but all the old stories that go with it.  Just something to ponder.
I really don't feel qualified to judge the "Rossness" of RCC, either before or after the work that has just been done, and I certainly wouldn't do that from aerial photos.

I played the course after Mandell's work, and thought it was wonderful.  I fully understand the respect that both Mandell and Franz have in the world of Ross restorations, plus I haven't seen the "new" version, of course.  I'm not at all comfortable with a "compare and contrast" judgement about the relative merits of what the two men did.

Perhaps it is possible that Mandell's work, which was pretty close to the beginning of John McConnell's golf business, had a different aim point than what Franz was asked to do; I don't know. 


Perhaps the work done at Hope Valley, first by LaFoy, then by Silva, and now by Kris Spence would be a good parallel to RCC, and that one I did get to play before and after each.  The course was great before and after each man worked on it, and I think it's fair to say that each man was tasked differently by the club, even though, at least to an extent, each of those projects could be viewed as "restoration" work.  The trajectory of work at Cape Fear CC is probably similar; Andrew Green just finished work on the course, which was renovated by Kris Spence just a few years ago.  Judging which version is more "Ross-like" will have to be for someone else to decide.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Roman Schwarz

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2020, 08:14:35 AM »
It's been a few years since I've been there, but it'll be really interesting to see what they did with the greens.  They have clearly always been very proud of the "fast" greens (and mention it again in the video), but I thought they were too fast for what they have.  I have nothing against greens running fast if that fits how it was built (Kinloch comes to mind), but RCC's were on the small side with significant undulation.  There was one hole location in particular on such a severe slope if you were putting uphill and missed it with some pace it would come all the way back down below the hole every time.


Small, fast, and undulating all in 1 package is not a good thing.  There just weren't enough good places to put the hole.  They obviously threw out small, so seeing what they did with the other 2 will be fascinating.  Personally, I'd have leaned into the severe slopes like Southern Pines and run them a little slower.


Like the others here, I don't know anything about the breed of bent they chose, but choosing bent in the first place is noteworthy.  Everywhere else nearby has gone to bermuda when renovated or built recently (Duke, Wildwood Green, Prestonwood, Old Chatham off the top of my head).  If you're going for fast and tolerant of significant foot traffic, that's typically the choice.  Even down in Pinehurst, the Ross courses are going to bermuda.  My guess is that giving up on bent was a no-go for the members.

Mike Bodo

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2020, 08:16:32 AM »
I have thought the same thing, many times. Seems like many architects have a "version" of Ross that they try to re-create. Some have past photos & aerials that aid in the direction, specifically Aronimink. Gil's work looks much more like the old photos, but how did it get to be Prichard's version & considered restoration? (I don't know that answer; were the aerials not available in 2001?)
According to the guys from NLU who reviewed the course and restoration Gil Hanse did back in 2018, I get the impression that much of the work done at Aronimink was based on an aerial photo discovered from 1929.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWcGkDhthLc


I'm not sure what records, architectural plans or archival photos of the course Ron Prichard worked from or off of back in the early 2000's, but he may not have had access to this particular photo, in which there is nary a scant tree on the property and you can see many of the holes in crisp detail (see 2:09 mark).


What gets me is that Ross is famously quoted for having gone back to Aronimink in 1948 and uttered the remark, "I intended to make this my masterpiece, but not until today did I realize I built better than I knew." By that time the course surely had grown in and matured, with trees occupying once vacant land. This being the case, why wouldn't a recent architect try and restore the course to that time as opposed to how the course looked and played in 1929? Perhaps therein lays the difference between the two rebuilds? Prichard may have attempted restoring the course to how it looked and played in the mid to late 40's whereas Hanse took it one step further and went back to how the course appeared in its infancy.


I suspect when Ross and many other Golden Era archies designed and built courses throughout much of the U.S. they did so with a vision of how the course would look and play decades later - taking into account things such as the addition of trees and how they would alter the views of the course, in addition to the playing lines and angles of the holes. Thus, when Ross returned to Aronimink years after it was originally built what he saw exceeded his expectations and of what he envisioned the course becoming during the design and building process.


It's well documented that Ross in his later years was going back to some of his courses and refining them. Unlike many of his contemporaries, he lived long enough to be able to do that. Obviously, Aronimink wasn't a course he felt needed tinkering with in 1948, as he thought it was great just the way it was.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 08:20:34 AM by Mike Bodo »
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2020, 08:44:46 AM »
It's been a few years since I've been there, but it'll be really interesting to see what they did with the greens.  They have clearly always been very proud of the "fast" greens (and mention it again in the video), but I thought they were too fast for what they have.  I have nothing against greens running fast if that fits how it was built (Kinloch comes to mind), but RCC's were on the small side with significant undulation.  There was one hole location in particular on such a severe slope if you were putting uphill and missed it with some pace it would come all the way back down below the hole every time.


Small, fast, and undulating all in 1 package is not a good thing.  There just weren't enough good places to put the hole.  They obviously threw out small, so seeing what they did with the other 2 will be fascinating.  Personally, I'd have leaned into the severe slopes like Southern Pines and run them a little slower.


Like the others here, I don't know anything about the breed of bent they chose, but choosing bent in the first place is noteworthy.  Everywhere else nearby has gone to bermuda when renovated or built recently (Duke, Wildwood Green, Prestonwood, Old Chatham off the top of my head).  If you're going for fast and tolerant of significant foot traffic, that's typically the choice.  Even down in Pinehurst, the Ross courses are going to bermuda.  My guess is that giving up on bent was a no-go for the members.

I lean toward agreeing with you about the relatively unusual decision to stay with bent grass during a renovation in 2020; it's pretty close to unique in this part of the country, for obvious reasons. 


It may be that sticking with bent is because of the smallish greens and significant contours; Bermuda, especially downhill and down grain, just takes too many pin positions off the table.  I can't prove this, but I think there is a world of difference between bent rolling 12 and bermuda rolling 12; there are some putts on bermuda that just really get away, and places that you just cannot put the pins, so unless they wanted to really change the greens, changing the grass might have been a non-starter.

As it happens, I played a CGA four ball at Treyburn on Tuesday; it's a McConnell course (Fazio design), still with bent grass greens that are just lightning fast.  The putting was extremely difficult, and the penalty for being above the hole was death, but had those greens been Bermuda, it would have approached being unplayable.  As it was, it was exhausting but possible.  (BTW, I shot a million, but not because of my putting.)

The other factor that has to be taken into account with a McConnell course is that they just don't get much play, at least compared to Pinehurst.  Old Chatham is probably a better comparison, as is Hope Valley, so in that regard RCC sticking with bent greens is still highly unusual, but it appears that McConnell is drawing money from a bottomless well, and can do anything he wants in terms of course conditions.  If that wasn't the case, I don't think we'd be having a discussion of any work at RCC, because it wouldn't have happened.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mark_Fine

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2020, 08:48:32 AM »
Wish I had time for more comments as lots of good points raised here.  What I will say is that as long as the members are happy that is what is most important. The course looks great and I hope to get back to play it one day again.  I just hope they don't sell it as a true "Ross" and his last original design.  Maybe the routing is still intact but not sure what else is?  Maybe a good topic for another thread would be where would you send someone to see an authentic Ross or an original design of any of the Golden Age architects?  We all know that courses change and evolve but which ones out there are pretty close to what the original architect designed/intended?  Just to state one example, you wouldn't send someone to study the "Ross" greens at Pinehurst #2 because they are NOT  ;)

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2020, 08:49:36 AM »
We need a Dixie Cup of Raleigh, Hope Valley, Sedgefield and Old Town.
Just saying. 

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2020, 09:44:45 AM »


 My guess is that giving up on bent was a no-go for the members.


More likely that it was a no go for McConnell. He does what he wants.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2020, 12:23:56 PM »


 My guess is that giving up on bent was a no-go for the members.


More likely that it was a no go for McConnell. He does what he wants.
Absolutely, and I think you could get hundreds of testimonies to that effect from long-time members at Sedgefield and The Cardinal.  I don't think the merger, the split, or The Cardinal becoming a semi-private were subject to referendums.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Terry Lavin

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2020, 09:17:16 AM »
We need a Dixie Cup of Raleigh, Hope Valley, Sedgefield and Old Town.
Just saying.


Judgment affirmed.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jay Mickle

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2020, 07:41:44 AM »
If heading west 1:45 to Old Town may as well go another hour to Roaring Gap.
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Tom Fagerli

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Re: Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2020, 08:06:07 PM »
If heading west 1:45 to Old Town may as well go another hour to Roaring Gap.
Sadly the Gap is closed for the winter.

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