Warm weather grasses on links style courses

[David Davis]

I've left my ball short and right, a not uncommon occurrence, the visual is one that could be transplanted to the UK/Ireland. My mind tells me I've seen this shot 1000 times before, a simple bump and run with a 7 or 8 iron that hits and runs through the grass up the slope and nestles close to the pin.


But what if that option is taken out of play almost entirely with the usage of warm weather grasses. Sure, there are new strains of Bermuda being introduced that can all but solve this, like Mach 1 that's used at Streamsong (or at least that's my limited understanding).


However, from an architectural point of view, these courses keep popping up with this similar minimalist, links like look, they are loved and heralded but I nearly always leave feeling a bit disappointed in the fact that the shots seem to require the same, chip it to the hole, type play rather than really allowing you to putt or bump it in as the visual suggests could work.


I imagine this to be different when the grasses are dormant but have little experience playing in those conditions.


Thoughts?

[John Emerson]

The finest turf I’ve played in the USA has been dormant Bermuda.  It’s the closest thing to the fine fescues/bentgrasses used in Scotland. 

[Adam Lawrence]

John is right about the playability of dormant bermuda (and, to be fair, other warm season grasses), but dormant turf cannot support heavy play -- if you put thousands of rounds across a golf course that isn't growing, the result isn't hard to predict. It may be that true links turf simply cannot be replicated in a warm season environment. Or grass technology may eventually get us there, or at least close enough not to make much difference. The only real answer is to enjoy golf for what it offers, not what it cannot provide.

[Matt Wharton]

Gentlemen,


Getting bermudagrass to play like links turf can be tricky.  I know there have been attempts made at other courses to starve the turf and keep it lean in hopes to promote a firm and fast surface but this usually results in poor traffic tolerance and unsatisfactory traffic recovery if the course has steady or above average play.  Also, if the course is built on clay soil and/or located in a region that experiences abundant rainfall the turf can become too lush to promote the desired bouncy characteristics.


As for dormant bermudagrass, I agree it is a great surface but only when dry.  A sandy, dormant bermudagrass golf course is ideal.  But if the golf course is growing on clay soil, there is nothing worse than playing on saturated, dormant bermudagrass following a heavy rain.


Hope that helps! 

[David Davis]

Gentlemen,


Getting bermudagrass to play like links turf can be tricky.  I know there have been attempts made at other courses to starve the turf and keep it lean in hopes to promote a firm and fast surface but this usually results in poor traffic tolerance and unsatisfactory traffic recovery if the course has steady or above average play.  Also, if the course is built on clay soil and/or located in a region that experiences abundant rainfall the turf can become too lush to promote the desired bouncy characteristics.


As for dormant bermudagrass, I agree it is a great surface but only when dry.  A sandy, dormant bermudagrass golf course is ideal.  But if the golf course is growing on clay soil, there is nothing worse than playing on saturated, dormant bermudagrass following a heavy rain.


Hope that helps!

Ok so if this is the case, and I believe you, why are they creating courses that have the look of links courses and greens set up in a way that would inspire the ground game but essentially it's a big struggle to utilize this tactic. I guess that's really my point and while I'm a big fan of links golf as well as having an option to utilize the ground game, I find that I leave courses slightly disappointed where often the best way to play a shot is not an available option and instead everything really needs to be played through the air.

[Adam Lawrence]

Gentlemen,


Getting bermudagrass to play like links turf can be tricky.  I know there have been attempts made at other courses to starve the turf and keep it lean in hopes to promote a firm and fast surface but this usually results in poor traffic tolerance and unsatisfactory traffic recovery if the course has steady or above average play.  Also, if the course is built on clay soil and/or located in a region that experiences abundant rainfall the turf can become too lush to promote the desired bouncy characteristics.


As for dormant bermudagrass, I agree it is a great surface but only when dry.  A sandy, dormant bermudagrass golf course is ideal.  But if the golf course is growing on clay soil, there is nothing worse than playing on saturated, dormant bermudagrass following a heavy rain.


Hope that helps!

Ok so if this is the case, and I believe you, why are they creating courses that have the look of links courses and greens set up in a way that would inspire the ground game but essentially it's a big struggle to utilize this tactic. I guess that's really my point and while I'm a big fan of links golf as well as having an option to utilize the ground game, I find that I leave courses slightly disappointed where often the best way to play a shot is not an available option and instead everything really needs to be played through the air.

Because a lot of the people who play those courses will never have played (and never will play) a true links and so it is the nearest they will ever get.

[Matt Wharton]

Adam is right that a lot of players will not get the chance to experience a true links and courses created to look and/or feel like a links is the best they can hope for.  As for the playability, we have such a variety of soil types and climates across the U.S. that it's hard to truly replicate with grasses poorly suited.  The courses in the Pacific Northwest have accomplished it (i.e., Bandon) for the climate there is conducive for fine fescues.  But in the case of bermudagrass here in North Carolina, closely mowed approaches and surrounds have grain that grows away from a raised putting surface.  So, that delicate pitch and run shot doesn't always react and respond the way we anticipate, but rather the bermudagrass grabs the ball like velcro.  Which leads to your point David, that players ultimately choose to take that out of the equation and play through the air.  If there was a shoulder shrug emoji I would insert it here.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Adam is right that a lot of players will not get the chance to experience a true links and courses created to look and/or feel like a links is the best they can hope for.  As for the playability, we have such a variety of soil types and climates across the U.S. that it's hard to truly replicate with grasses poorly suited.  The courses in the Pacific Northwest have accomplished it (i.e., Bandon) for the climate there is conducive for fine fescues.  But in the case of bermudagrass here in North Carolina, closely mowed approaches and surrounds have grain that grows away from a raised putting surface.  So, that delicate pitch and run shot doesn't always react and respond the way we anticipate, but rather the bermudagrass grabs the ball like velcro.  Which leads to your point David, that players ultimately choose to take that out of the equation and play through the air.  If there was a shoulder shrug emoji I would insert it here.

Good to see another turf guy on here! I've observed (mainly on tv I'm a cool-season guy) that it doesn't seem to be that difficult to get a nice firm bounce on an ultradwarf green, however it seems to be quite rare to see big bounces on fairway/approach areas. Is this because the usual setup is a USGA spec green surrounded by clay soiled approaches and fairways? Also, aren't typical fairway bermudas like 419 pretty prolific thatch producers?


Appreciate your input Matt!

[Matt Wharton]

Adam is right that a lot of players will not get the chance to experience a true links and courses created to look and/or feel like a links is the best they can hope for.  As for the playability, we have such a variety of soil types and climates across the U.S. that it's hard to truly replicate with grasses poorly suited.  The courses in the Pacific Northwest have accomplished it (i.e., Bandon) for the climate there is conducive for fine fescues.  But in the case of bermudagrass here in North Carolina, closely mowed approaches and surrounds have grain that grows away from a raised putting surface.  So, that delicate pitch and run shot doesn't always react and respond the way we anticipate, but rather the bermudagrass grabs the ball like velcro.  Which leads to your point David, that players ultimately choose to take that out of the equation and play through the air.  If there was a shoulder shrug emoji I would insert it here.

Good to see another turf guy on here! I've observed (mainly on tv I'm a cool-season guy) that it doesn't seem to be that difficult to get a nice firm bounce on an ultradwarf green, however it seems to be quite rare to see big bounces on fairway/approach areas. Is this because the usual setup is a USGA spec green surrounded by clay soiled approaches and fairways? Also, aren't typical fairway bermudas like 419 pretty prolific thatch producers?


Appreciate your input Matt!

Tom,


I would say the answer to your question is less because of USGA green versus clay soil approaches and more about how the turf is managed/maintained.  The use of ultradwarf bermudagrass on putting surfaces throughout the southeast does allow one to achieve a level of firmness more readily or easily than with bentgrass.  That's because with bentgrass the recipe for proper firmness has more ingredients than the UD require.  You are correct that typical bermudagrasses like 419 can readily produce thatch if not managed.  Most private courses in south Florida manage this annually with closed periods in the peak summer months to aerate, verticut, topdress and more.  We have been topdressing our bermudagrass fairways since 2014 and for the past two years we have closed for one week each June to remove thatch via verticutting deeply, solid tine and topdress heavily. 


Hope that helps! 

[Forrest Richardson]

SeaDwarf Paspalum — and other varieties of Paspalum — can be kept low and behave (rolls) nearly identical to fescues. Adam Lawrence wrote about this in GCA Magazine when he reviewed the Links at Las Palomas (Sonora, Mexico) that we completed in 2007.

BTW — To suggest that a "Links" cannot be on sand dunes formed by tidal action in Mexico or elsewhere is bunk. I took George Pepper to task on that and he still refuses to think a "Links" course can be anywhere besides some few select places on earth. Most of them places where they produce good Whiskey.

Just research Hlincas [Scottish: Sandy land near the shore], the original of "Links".

[Anthony_Nysse]

SeaDwarf Paspalum — and other varieties of Paspalum — can be kept low and behave (rolls) nearly identical to fescues. Adam Lawrence wrote about this in GCA Magazine when he reviewed the Links at Las Palomas (Sonora, Mexico) that we completed in 2007.

BTW — To suggest that a "Links" cannot be on sand dunes formed by tidal action in Mexico or elsewhere is bunk. I took George Pepper to task on that and he still refuses to think a "Links" course can be anywhere besides some few select places on earth. Most of them places where they produce good Whiskey.

Just research Hlincas [Scottish: Sandy land near the shore], the original of "Links".

I would strongly disagree with your assessment of paspalum. At least in FL, it’s generally very soft, sticky & needs tremendous inputs. Nothing like a good fescue at all. Other end of the spectrum, in fact.

[Forrest Richardson]

Anthony — There are lots of varieties of Paspalum, and loads of different management protocols. Florida is also its own climate. I cannot answer beyond what I said relative to the SeaDwarf variety in Mexico and a few other locales.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Anthony — There are lots of varieties of Paspalum, and loads of different management protocols. Florida is also its own climate. I cannot answer beyond what I said relative to the SeaDwarf variety in Mexico and a few other locales.

Correct, which is why I mentioned it. Whether is Seaisle 1,Platinum, Seadwarf, OCO3 (Kiawah Island) or another, its generally a thatchy grass that needs more inputs than bermudagrass. Its biggest positive is its color & ability to handle VERY brackish or salt water.
  Semi dormant is when its probably a better surface, but all grasses are that way.

[Adam Lawrence]

I think paspalum, like bermuda, is pretty fast and bouncy when dormant or close to dormant. But as discussed above, no matter how good a surface dormant grass is, it can't really be a solution to anyone's issues.

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I played Kukio and Nanea last year I thought the ball ran fairly well. They use Paspalum.

[Tim Gavrich]

A couple years ago when I spent a few days at The Abaco Club in the Bahamas, I was blown away at hot tight and firm they got the turf to play. No greenside shots were off the table. Wonderful place.

[Michael Wolf]

My home club in Alabama has had a good experience with tiftuf and tifgrand on the approaches and green surrounds. The tighter they are cut and the more they are starved of water the better they seem to respond. It's not at the level of a true links experience, but they provide ample bounce and roll to attempt run up shots when curving shots under and around our pine trees. And maybe more importantly - they provide some nice 20&30 yard run offs when a lofted short iron misses a green on the wrong side.


Unfortunately have to agree with the comment on winter play - the turf is spectacular when dormant in December and January, but lofted chips become virtually impossible when the heavy rains arrive in February.



Michael