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Ronald Montesano

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ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« on: November 01, 2020, 06:38:02 AM »
This came about ... well, you know why (Macarthur thread.)


What I think I know about the matter:


Coore is the in the dirt trained guy. Crenshaw is the on the course trained guy, although Coore did compete for Wake Forest, so there's that. Over the years, Crenshaw has learned sooo much from Coore, but he never did an apprenticeship like Coore did.


For a time (perhaps permanent) Crenshaw did not travel to ONA (outside north america) builds. Not sure when this began, nor if it is still in effect.


Coore is soft-spoken, but Crenshaw may be even more soft spoken. Coore has always been the spokesperson for the partnership, at least from what I've read.


I REALIZE that some, none, or all of what I've written may be true. Consider yourself invited to correct what I've written, confirm it, and add to it. All about the learning.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mike Bodo

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2020, 07:48:32 AM »
Coore is soft-spoken, but Crenshaw may be even more soft spoken. Coore has always been the spokesperson for the partnership, at least from what I've read.
Interesting you say this, because in Cob Carlson's documentary, Donald Ross: Discovering the Legend, Ben Crenshaw appears in a lot segments and expounds on Ross many design nuances and how those were incorporated into returning PH #2 closer to Ross' original intent. Bill Coore is only shown randomly with Ben pouring over old photos and architectural plans of Pinehurst #2 with Crenshaw, but is never heard on mic. I suspect this was done to promote the documentary seeing Ben Crenshaw is a more widely known name in the golfing world than Bill Coore, but I found that to be interesting.


Like you, I've wondered how much of a Coore - Crenshaw course is Bill Coore's input and contribution vs. Ben? Is Crenshaw merelly lending his name to their partnership and is little more than a figurehead, i.e. Palmer Golf in Arnie's latter years? Is he "boots on the ground" at each site or is he more ceremonial (shows up for the official grand opening only)? I don't know. I trust there are individuals here that do. I suspect Crenshaw's involvement varies depending on the project. For example, I'm willing to guess he was more involved with Trinity Forest's creation than other Coore - Crenshaw projects given it's in his home state and he's a proud Texan. I believe between the two Coore is the pitchman for any new project and Ben attends meetings primarily for appearance sake and chimes in when appropriate, but Bill Coore does 80% of the talking. I may be completely off-base in my analysis, but it's fun to speculate.  ;D


It would be interesting to hear from others in the group the machinations of their partnership and who actually contributes what to the typical Coore - Crenshaw course. I don't know if anyone is close with either individual personally. Perhaps Ran may, but I doubt he'll chime in on the subject for obvious reasons. I know there are several archie's here who have competed against Coore - Crenshaw for various projects over the years and I suspect they "hear things" about them and their working relationship through the grapevine. Whether they'll expound and share their thoughts is another story.


Thanks for creating a separate discussion topic for this, as I was almost going to chime in with similar comments in the MacArthur thread, but I thought better of taking it in that direction.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

John Nixon

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2020, 08:10:40 AM »
This could be interesting, especially if we don't limit the comments to known facts but rely also on gossip, hearsay, rumor and speculation.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2020, 08:27:04 AM »
I have never worked alongside or competed against C&C or any other design firm headed by a big name former pro... so I come at this question with the same level of ignorance as many of you.


I’ve always wondered which pro’s are the most intricately involved with the designs they put their name to?


If you divide architecture in to the following four very broad activities -


1. Routing
2. Strategy and playing characteristics
3. Shaping the landscape
4. Technical aspects like grading, quantities, calculations, drainage, irrigation and production of plans / drawings


- then I always figured that most “involved” professionals would be able to contribute greatly to No.2 whilst struggling (at least initially) with 1, 3 & 4. Those aspects come with a lot of training and hours and most pro golfer architects are spending a lot of their time on sales and other golf business interests, including many of them still playing professionally.


Mike Clayton (for instance) may be a full time GCA now and adept at all 4 of the above.... Colin Montgomery (for instance) may be a masthead and nothing more i.e. is adept at none of the 4.


But above is speculation. I’d be as interested to know as anyone on both Ben Crenshaw and any other names. Whether anyone who does know is willing to speak up is another matter.






John Kavanaugh

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2020, 08:34:49 AM »



Coore is the in the dirt trained guy. Crenshaw is the on the course trained guy, although Coore did compete for Wake Forest, so there's that. Over the years, Crenshaw has learned sooo much from Coore, but he never did an apprenticeship like Coore did.





Did Coore play on the Wake Forest golf team?

William_G

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2020, 09:05:58 AM »
much like any great relationship: balance, respect, love and trust is what C&C is all about

It's all about the golf!

Steve_ Shaffer

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mark Kiely

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2020, 10:46:30 AM »
Lest we forget:


https://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/bill-coore-november-1999/


Someone should delete every "speculative" response above this and read question 18 at this link.
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Ronald Montesano

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2020, 11:12:52 AM »
Hello, Mark.

I don't know you, so I hope I don't put you off with this response.

That was 21 years ago. It is expected that a working relationship evolves over those 21 years.

It is possible that Ben got more "into" other aspects of design, than he had understood previously.

Ben was 47 at the time of that interview, four years removed from his 2nd Masters jacket, also his final tour title. He won a 2009 senior event with Fuzzy, but I think it was a silly season event.

John...Bill did play on the varsity at Wake Forest. I don't know how many events he played, but he certainly played his way around Old Town Club as an undergrad.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

John Kavanaugh

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2020, 11:25:21 AM »
To play golf for Wake Forest is equitable to playing on tour from an architectural standpoint. I had no idea he was so accomplished. 

William_G

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2020, 12:43:36 PM »
It's all about the golf!

Kalen Braley

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2020, 12:56:02 PM »
Given that its C&C does it really matter who does what?

Big difference between these guys taking dual attribution and an ex-pro that fronts a design shop, shows up for photo shoots and opening day, while doing little else....but is then the sole name on the design.

Agree with William, nuff said, C&C has a great thing going and no doubt have nothing to prove to anyone...

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2020, 01:29:05 PM »
On pretty much every course of theirs that I have played I heard stories of Bill Coore spending days and weeks looking at the land to determine if he thought it would be a good site for a golf course. Roger Hansen told me that Bill walked the site of Hidden Creek for three weeks to see if he would recommend to Ben about taking the commision. Then together they worked on the routing. At Colorado GC I was told by their super that he found Ben on a green-site one night with the lights of his pickup shining on the green that he was on his hands and knees shaping.. I heard similar stories at Chesseschee and Sand Hills.


We are the happy recipients of a wonderful design team. I am grateful that they found each other and work so well together.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ronald Montesano

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2020, 01:39:13 PM »
John-Bill Coore graduated from Wake in 1968. By his own admission, he was on the team, but he wasn't ever in line for a tour career.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mark Kiely

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2020, 02:42:39 PM »
Hello, Mark.

I don't know you, so I hope I don't put you off with this response.

That was 21 years ago. It is expected that a working relationship evolves over those 21 years.

It is possible that Ben got more "into" other aspects of design, than he had understood previously.

Ben was 47 at the time of that interview, four years removed from his 2nd Masters jacket, also his final tour title. He won a 2009 senior event with Fuzzy, but I think it was a silly season event.



That still doesn't justify people posting wild speculation that will show up in Google results and will be accepted as fact by casual participants.
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Tom_Doak

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2020, 02:46:50 PM »
I have known both Bill and Ben since 1981 - which is four years longer than they've known each other.


I think I have a pretty good sense of what their roles are, but both of them are extremely deferential to the other, to the point that if they didn't agree 98% on what to do, they would never be able to finish anything.  😉


Bill told me years ago that he and Ben agreed early on not to discuss any differences in their ideas in front of anyone else, so they have kept that bit opaque and that's the way they like it.


Beyond that, you're all just guessing.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2020, 02:59:20 PM »
Mark,


That’s a little over-sensitive. Are we allowed to speculate how much input other professional golfers have in their respective firms? I know the answer to a few of those. And it’s not pretty.


I want to hear examples of pro golfers who have taken the time and energy to genuinely learn the craft / trade / profession of golf course architecture. I’ve no doubt Ben Crenshaw is quite high up on that list. It intrigues me to know how high.


From Tom’s post, sounds like we’ll never know.

Rob Marshall

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2020, 03:09:39 PM »
I’m sorry that I posted what I had personally perceived, probably erroneously, from numerous posts that I have read on this discussion board over the years. I meant no disrespect to anyone especially Ben Crenshaw. 25 plus years ago I played the Plantation course and was puzzled by the slope of one of severe down hill par 4’s. I don’t remember which hole it was but the green slanted with the hill and it made stopping a ball near a front pin almost impossible. I wrote Ben a letter asking him about the design. I came home one day from work and my wife tells me I received a letter from Ben Crenshaw in the mail that day. The letter was on Ben’s letterhead and personally signed answering my questions. A very classy thing to do. I should have kept my thought to myself. I realize today that nothing positive could have come from it.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Mark Kiely

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2020, 03:35:09 PM »

Ally: I agree it would be fascinating to know the ins and outs of how they work together, but what good does public speculation do us? It's just putting falsehoods out into the world that will need to be overcome. It's GCA.com fan fiction.

In general response to this thread, I think even casual golf fans know Ben Crenshaw as being very thoughtful and genuine -- anything but a "phony." So it strikes me as unfair to post speculation that he's just the "name" in the partnership and Bill really is the one who does all the work. If that were the case, why wouldn't Bill have gone out on his own by now? He's certainly earned the notoriety to have done so if he felt Ben wasn't contributing value to the partnership.
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Mike_Clayton

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2020, 06:15:02 PM »
I have never worked alongside or competed against C&C or any other design firm headed by a big name former pro... so I come at this question with the same level of ignorance as many of you.


I’ve always wondered which pro’s are the most intricately involved with the designs they put their name to?


If you divide architecture in to the following four very broad activities -


1. Routing
2. Strategy and playing characteristics
3. Shaping the landscape
4. Technical aspects like grading, quantities, calculations, drainage, irrigation and production of plans / drawings


- then I always figured that most “involved” professionals would be able to contribute greatly to No.2 whilst struggling (at least initially) with 1, 3 & 4. Those aspects come with a lot of training and hours and most pro golfer architects are spending a lot of their time on sales and other golf business interests, including many of them still playing professionally.


Mike Clayton (for instance) may be a full time GCA now and adept at all 4 of the above.... Colin Montgomery (for instance) may be a masthead and nothing more i.e. is adept at none of the 4.


But above is speculation. I’d be as interested to know as anyone on both Ben Crenshaw and any other names. Whether anyone who does know is willing to speak up is another matter.


I was lucky my early partnership with Bruce Grant and John Sloan - likely two of the best handful best superintendents in Australia - covered all four. I had no clue about #4 (of course, it's useful to understand there are things you don't understand) and some of #3 but they were terrific at both.

Terry Lavin

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2020, 06:15:32 PM »
Their work product reflects their partnership. This discussion will lead to nothing productive. Were they to get “divorced” and wind up separately designing courses, the chirpers can then chirp. In the meantime they’ve been an accomplished and creative pair, by all accounts.


Trying to divine and divide seems spurious to me.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

mike_beene

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2020, 11:41:34 PM »
What I saw when they redid my course was one would come and do something then the other would come and see if it looked right. Both spent hours observing and thinking

Niall C

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2020, 04:58:09 AM »
Given that its C&C does it really matter who does what?

Big difference between these guys taking dual attribution and an ex-pro that fronts a design shop, shows up for photo shoots and opening day, while doing little else....but is then the sole name on the design.

Agree with William, nuff said, C&C has a great thing going and no doubt have nothing to prove to anyone...


Sorry Kalen, don't agree. "Nuff said" is an attempt to shut down discussion on a discussion board ffs. If you don't agree with Ron's OP then say why you don't agree but let people discuss. And as Ron himself said, the interview referred to was 21 years ago. When I think of my own career, what I am doing now is very much different to what I was doing 21 years ago and I work in the same profession. It's not unreasonable to think that C&C's working relationship might have moved on in the same timescale.


Niall

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2020, 07:25:30 AM »
The only thing I can confirm is Ben's "No overseas work."  At least, when I was working on Hainan Island after they finished their course there, I stayed at the same hotel and was told Bill had spent 140 nights there and Ben zero.


As to the rest, I think the discussion is valid, in that many, if not most, PGA Tour pros mostly put their name on a course, not really design it in any traditional sense.  Even some who have their own firms, i.e., Nicklaus worked at routing and concept design, and studied it enough to understand basics like drainage, even if not doing any detail work, where Palmer was mostly a name plate, but there are many photos of him on site visits, but far fewer of them on second or third site visits to the same project.  Not really sure about others like Jerry Pate and Davis Love, although I know who could answer for the latter!  And I can confirm that many pros who partner one time with an architect are in the 1-3 site visit mode, maybe a day or two looking at plans ahead of time, with varying degrees of interest.


By most accounts, Ben is the outlier to that rule, and is said to truly contribute.  But, my guess would be that even in the US, Bill's on site days outnumber Ben's to some degree as a general rule.  I'm not sure the exact amount matters.  For that matter, it is certainly possible that one partner could make a single observation even in limited time that would improve a design immeasurably, so you have to give credit to both. 


On the other hand, all the Beatles songs were said to be written by Lennon-McCartney, but 50 years later, there are books, blogs, and even a mathematical algorithm dedicated to figuring out who wrote each song, down to parts thereof.  Curious minds want to know, I guess.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

A.G._Crockett

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Re: ThreadJack: Crenshaw's role in C & C
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2020, 08:03:25 AM »
My wife and I have had a wonderful marriage for 40 years now.  How we divide the labor shifts constantly, and often puts both of us into "non-traditional" roles.  Who does the laundry, or who cooked dinner last night, or which of us should do ANY task that we face, is less important than that the task get done.  Because of that, it probably isn't possible, except in the most general terms, to define our "roles" in the marriage.  We have different gifts, and we have different deficiencies; the marriage allows us to take advantage of the former and minimize the latter.

The C & C marriage has been lasting, and has produced beautiful, subtle, lasting results.  I would guess that there are as many answers to the question at hand as there have been courses, with Coore's answer to question 18 in the interview bringing general insight into what each brings to the other.  Analyzing their roles beyond that is likely impossible; the answer for one project isn't likely to be the same as it was for the previous project or the next project.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones