How much of a Redan is the Redan ?

[Niall C]

On the Redan listing thread Ally McIntosh opined that the basic principle of a Redan was that you either took on the left hand bunker and flew your tee shot over it or alternatively looked to land short and run it on with the ball being fed round to the left by the green contours.


Well I was playing at North Berwick last week as I’ve been fortunate to do a number of times before, and as I stood on the tee for the Gate hole overlooking the Redan green I pondered with my playing partner whether the green really works as advertised.


One of the things about the original Redan is that the green is blind from the tee so you don’t see how the ball reacts when it hits the green. There is no doubt there is a definite tilt in the green from front to back and with a bank on the right hand side. Logic tells you that the ball should feed round to the left, however in all the times I’ve played the hole, hitting a very wide variety of shots (most of which didn’t go as planned it has to be said) I’ve never felt that once I’ve got to the green that the ball has taken much of a swing if any. Likewise with playing partners shots.


I’ve often thought I’d like to sit behind that green and just watch shots being played in to see how the ball moves on the green but never actually done it. I suspect there might be a few out there that have. However I do wonder if CBM and others were inspired more by the basic idea of the Redan rather than the reality. Did they basically amplify the green contours to make it more of a feature ?


Thoughts ?


Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall,


I guess Redan the name comes from the fortress aspect. But as playing characteristics of a hole, you reflect correctly on what I believe to be the only important ones.


Haven’t actually played NB 15th enough times to know how well those playing options work there. But a hole “type” needs to have something that ties itself to the name and I think those are the key differentiators.

[Ian Galbraith]

Re the left hand bunker, it is so far left that there is no tactical advantage to be had from taking it on. Except for some extreme pin positions there is rarely any strategy to think about - you play to the right. 

[Niall C]

Ian


I suppose if the pin is back left and you were gung-ho, presumably you'd still have to cross it if going straight at the hole ?


The other thought I had about that bunker was maybe how over the years sand splash might have created a bank between the bunker and the putting surface so that it actually reduced the danger of slipping off the green into the bunker ?


Niall

[Ian Galbraith]

Actually the bunker comes much more directly into play from the winter tee which  is well to the left of the main tee.


re rolling into the bunker it is mostly controlled by how hairy the greenskeepers keep the bank. They've been quite generous lately leaving it long enough to catch a lot of balls.

[Niall C]

Ian


I was thinking more about a ball landing on the green and either because it was hooked or by the roll, rolling into the bunker. My recollection, which is by no means perfect, is that there has always been a bit of a hump created by sand splash but wonder if it would have been like that originally ? Just a thought.


Niall

[Emil Weber]

Niall,
from my 3 plays at NB 10 years ago, my recollection is very similar to what you describe. I thought there was too much front-to-back slope and not really enough right-to-left slope for the hole to really play like what I had read and understood it to play. If I was playing for a low score, I would probably always try to hit a high fade to stop it as quickly as possible, except maybe if it's 30mph downwind or the ground is as firm as concrete. That's also a technology issue obviously, as I'm sure that wouldn't have been possible 100+ years ago. But that low draw running up that tight slope and off the bank to the left is a 1 out of 100 shots at best. It's fun to try, but it doesn't really make sense to play the hole that way for me and I would assume for many others too. From photos it does seem like many of the template redans play a little more 'redan-like', can anyone confirm that?
Cheers,
Emil

[Sven Nilsen]

Probably a good idea to note that many of CBM’s templates merely borrowed concepts from the holes he saw abroad, and were never intended to be exact copies.


The Biarritz in France wasn’t even a par 3.  But he saw something on the ground that inspired the concept he came up with.



I’d look more to what he wrote about the “redan” than to how the hole at NB plays (or played).

[Lou_Duran]

For me, the Redan is mostly a theoretical construct.  In 6+ tries at NB's 15th, I have never hit the green and have only made par once, on my last play with a good chip from left of the green to a left hole location.  In my 6 rounds at Pacific Dunes, I have yet to hit the 17th green or make par.  Ditto for attempts at a number of MacRaynor Redans.  I no longer have the high shot with a lot of spin to hold the green on the fly or a spinning hook that hits the high right side and kicks left toward the hole.  It is one of my favorite templates which I've generalized to the point where I see at least one Redanesque green complex in nearly every course I play.

[Ally Mcintosh]

For me, the Redan is mostly a theoretical construct.  In 6+ tries at NB's 15th, I have never hit the green and have only made par once, on my last play with a good chip from left of the green to a left hole location.  In my 6 rounds at Pacific Dunes, I have yet to hit the 17th green or make par.  Ditto for attempts at a number of MacRaynor Redans.  I no longer have the high shot with a lot of spin to hold the green on the fly or a spinning hook that hits the high right side and kicks left toward the hole.  It is one of my favorite templates which I've generalized to the point where I see at least one Redanesque green complex in nearly every course I play.

I guess this was my point. Unless we agree that there is a specific playing characteristic, then we may as well say that there is a Redan on almost every course, this nullifying the name and concept.


The best I’ve played is not a CBM / Raynor... It is the 4th at Riviera, even with the slightly sticky Kikuyu.

[Tim Gallant]

Interesting thread. I certainly think it plays as we all think it should, but I could be biased. The kicker is large enough that it will generally rebound balls to the left and keep them out of the bunkers on the right. One poster is correct though that the front to back tilt is quite severe, and often balls coming from the right will be short of the green, or bound long into the semi-rough.


I think the hole plays best when there is a back left pin. That way you can bring it out right, where the margin for error is quite wide, and I have seen balls bound in off the kicker towards the pin. Those wanting to take it straight on must carry another 10+ yards or have to face the left bunker. Although, many don't know that there is actually a slight funnel down towards the centre of the green from the left as well, but it's much more on the flat side.


It's interesting to think about a Redan in relation to ones second shot into the green should he/she miss the putting surface. If short to a back-right pin, it's almost impossible to get it close. Either the ball will take the slope way left, or it will bound over the green. You'd need an exceptional touch to get it close!

[Dan_Callahan]

I’ve played the NB Redan twice. Both times I ended up off the green long. No idea how I got there ... if I flew it to that spot or if it hit the green and released to the back. In both cases, not a bad spot to be.


I’ve played the Shinnecock Redan once, and I have to say ... it played just as advertised. I played to front right, ball release back to the left. Hole was cut in the middle. My ball rolled past the hole and I was left with a nice, fairly straight uphill putt.


If I remember correctly, the NB green was completely blind. The front portion of Shinnecock’s green was visible from the tee. So even though both are Redan’s, NB’s blindness gave it a lot more quirk. 

[Ira Fishman]

I have played NB only twice (regrettably) and yanked it left both times (my go to miss), but our playing partner on the second play hit it to the rightish side of the green with a left hole location and her shot trundled down to birdie range. I have played only a few others, but number 8 at Old White is closest to the traditional definition that I have seen. I am never clear whether CBM or Raynor really did the design. I have not watched the PGA event there but assume that the pros just fly it to the hole regardless of pin location.


Ira

[Bill Brightly]

I've only played NB's Redan one time. I happened to hit a perfect shot that landed one foot short and rolled 35 feet below a front pin. (One of my favorite two putts!)


Early the next morning I walked out to study the hole. To be honest, after my one and only play at NGLA's Redan I was somewhat disappointed because it did not have the significant right-to-left pitch that I thought a proper Redan should have. As I studied hole, it became clear to me how CBM was inspired by NB's Redan, and how similar they both played. CBM captured the front to back tilt, the mostly "blind" putting surface, and the placement of the bunkers. The mild right-to-left tilt was probably not what CBM like about the hole.


So perhaps the more significant right-to-left tilt that Raynor, Banks and others (who probably never saw NB's Redan) seem to employ is an adaptation. I love the Redans that Raynor and Banks built (my home course Hackensack has the best one these two ever built) but it is fair to say that there a significant variance between NB and NGLA.

[mike_malone]

David McIntosh told me it was a par four originally. If so I think that explains much about the hole particularly the strategy of the bunker right and short. I try to carry that bunker and let it run.
 The redan templates I have played seem to think I need to see the putting surface or I’ll be disappointed.
I love the hole but have been lukewarm about the copies even NGLA which I liked.

[John Crowley]

Probably a good idea to note that many of CBM’s templates merely borrowed concepts from the holes he saw abroad, and were never intended to be exact copies.


The Biarritz in France wasn’t even a par 3.  But he saw something on the ground that inspired the concept he came up with.



I’d look more to what he wrote about the “redan” than to how the hole at NB plays (or played).

Sven,
You are on the right track. In my only two plays of the original the putting surface was totally blind and the front bunker a true fortress. On the first play it is a total guest as to where to aim.


Every template (10+/-) that I have played, the front portion of the green was visible and the front to back and right to left green contours were more apparent. And therefore the strategy more discernible.


My favorite is at Mid Ocean. And with a back hole location, a running draw using the contour to get back to the hole is a FUN shot.


Agree CBM was doing concepts, not copies.


Look forward to what you find in his writings. I am away from my home library for the Winter.

[Bryan Izatt]

Here is a picture from behind the green which shows the tilt from front to back dominating the right to left tilt.  The left side of the green (right in the picture) rises up to the back of the bunker and to the back tee for the 16th. If you take a direct line to the pin and land on that slope the ball will be propelled well over the green.  I always thought that the hole required a right-handed draw which would be accentuated a bit by the modest right to left tilt.  Since the hole most often plays down wind a bit from the right it is easier to run the ball on and harder to get it to stop.  On occasions when it plays into the the wind, it is an entirely different beast.

You can click through to a larger version of the picture.

[Sean_A]

NBs right to left tilt is not enough to swing a straight shot close to a far left hole location. Often the hole is left and therefore protected by the bunker. That bunker sees a ton of business. The glory of the hole imo is to aim away from the flag even though it can be seen and to take an extra club. I hardly ever see balls in the right bunkers, but lots of folks come up short. I rarely see anybody get close to a left hole location...that shot is incredibly precise when the land in zone can't be seen.

I do think the green was intended to be approached from closer range as it was a short 4 that may have been reachable for expert players on certain days. The short bunkers make more sense as well as a short 4.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

What is the prevailing wind direction on the Redan hole at NB?
How does the prevailing wind direction at the NB Redan hole compare to the prevailing wind direction at other courses that have holes 'copied' or 'inspired by' the NB hole?
atb

(Above plan as per current NBGC website)

[Bryan Izatt]

According to the wind rose for North Berwick the prevailing winds are generally from the south-west which means they are helping and quartering from the right.  They help with the desirable right-handed draw.

[Jeff Schley]

According to the wind rose for North Berwick the prevailing winds are generally from the south-west which means they are helping and quartering from the right.  They help with the desirable right-handed draw.

Wow kudos Bryan for the resourceful post. Great information that is objective and definitive.

[Thomas Dai]

Many thanks for the above info Bryan.
Anyone care to comment on the prevailing wind direction at some of the famous ‘replica’, ‘copy’ or ‘inspired by’ other Redans? Reverse Redans even.
Arb

[James Brown]

I’ve played “The” Redan at NB a few times and one [size=78%]time in a following wind I hit a flat one 7-iron from 186 that hit on the front part of the green and ran back to a foot from the back left flag.  It was a truly memorable shot.  The other times have been pretty unremarkable because it is, frankly, a blind shot for the most part and the green doesn’t have that much slope in it and it’s massive.  US Redans are much more extreme.  [/size]
[/size]
[/size]The next hole at North Berwick is much more interesting![size=78%]

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think CBM wrote something about the Redan, no?  Like, "Take a green, angle it 45 degrees left, and slope it away from the golfer?"  I think that is the essence.  And many feel CBM got his at the National more right than the original.


IMHO, reproducing the original concept now means you have to change the contours.  Somewhere, a gca made a survey of Redans, and found the original Raynor ones sloped 12% away, and some newer ones were about 6%.  Will have to look that one up when I have time.  But, I doubt you could do either these days (see Shinny and the US Open where it was so slick the only play was a fade to cancel the cross slope)


The reverse slope needs to be perhaps a max of 5%, and probably less.  That said, I have seen good players simply spin the ball harder when the reverse slope is less than 2% or so.  At 5%, balls will roll of a fw cut, and at 7% reverse slope, they will just keep running.  Somewhere in between, and pray for about constant moisture from the irrigation practices, and you might be about right.


It became fairly popular to copy the Redan, in some part after the ASGCA trip to Scotland in 1980.  However, many architects of that period wouldn't build a reverse slope green at all, thus negating some of the Redan concepts.


As someone mentioned, I think most of us, as opposed to expecting a running shot with a draw, because most approach areas just don't allow running, do the Redan as much a choice of flying the bunker toward the pin, or playing safe to the right, perhaps kicking in off the right hand slope .  I figure the golfer will fly one perhaps a club or two short of the pin, and use the combo of side and back slopes to trickle the ball to the pin, not really run it in like some of the old ones, i.e., the "safe shot" can get you close to the pin if you have some finesse, not just end up in a bail out zone.


I also question CBM's 45 degree assumption.  Seems like 30 degrees works well enough, but then, I am sure it can be concocted several different ways.  It's just hard to bend and run a shot to a green that is as wide as it is deep.

[Jeff Schley]

I’ve played “The” Redan at NB a few times and one [size=78%]time in a following wind I hit a flat one 7-iron from 186 that hit on the front part of the green and ran back to a foot from the back left flag.  It was a truly memorable shot.  [/size]

Was it a great PAR???