Cabot Pacific (Rod Whitman) Revelstoke, BC

[Matt Kardash]

Has Whitman designed a course since Cabot Links? If not, why? How can a guy design a world top 100 course and not get any work from it?

[PCCraig]

Pat, no need for me to defend Mike Keiser but you know there were special circumstances regarding a relationship between him and the sponsors of the Glen Club.  He was not the lead on that deal.  I suppose you are critical of his efforts to improve Chicago's oldest public course, Jackson Park, because it does not fit his preferred profile.

I will never fault a guy for making a business deal. However, when MK is painted as some sort of Robin Hood of the average Joe golfer who only builds remote sand-based golf courses with C&C and Tom Doak it tends to be a bit disingenuous, no?

[Andrew Harvie]

Has Whitman designed a course since Cabot Links? If not, why? How can a guy design a world top 100 course and not get any work from it?

Overhauled Algonquin to the point it might as well be his. Rod's never been really active in getting jobs. He's not vocal, and a bit quiet. Here's his Canadian timeline:


-1987: Wolf Creek (Old)
-1992: 9 hole addition to Wolf Creek
-2003: Blackhawk
-2009: Sagebrush
-2012: Cabot Links
-2012: 9 hole addition to make Wolf Creek (Links)
-2018: Algonquin
-2019: Cabot Links (Nest)
-2023: Cabot Pacific


He's done work in Germany and France, but aside from that, I think Rod's more than happy just spending time with family at home. He doesn't actively pursue work, per say

[Steve Lang]

   Cabot West or Cabot BC doesn't sound as good as Cabot Pacific...I assume putts will tend to break to the Pacific?


Would it be impossible or too costly to sand cap things there?   

[Tom Bacsanyi]

 A bit of a consensus is building around sand capping not being all it's cracked up to be. Especially given the cost.


For me, the logical thing to do is work lots of sand out as part of a topdressing regime, not all at once. Over time, organic matter and thatch form close to the surface regardless of the soil type, and sand capping will do nothing to stop this. It may slow it down somewhat. That being said, aggressive topdressing programs will always dilute OM and thatch. So if you have the budget for X number of tons of sand, work that same quantity out over time. This allows you to spread the costs out over time and when the course is actually operating.


As for the costs, the cost of the sand is nothing compared to the trucking costs and the labor costs of putting the sand out, whether it's in house or contracted. Since the delivery is out to Revelstoke you are talking some serious $$$ unless there's a nearby source. And if there is a nearby source of sand, that does not necessarily mean it's a good sand for the application. Excessively fine sands will hold almost as much water as clay, and excessively coarse will dry out too quickly.


But don't take my word for it: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/green-section-record/58/20/sand-capped-fairways-can-still-be-wet.html

[Don Mahaffey]

Like most things we are learning today...Sand Capping works great when science drives every decision. 


But when cuts are made and the cap thinned due to budget reasons what you build is more akin to a sand sponge than a sand cap. The right sand at the right depth will work. If you don't have the $$$ to do that, then surface drainage combined with getting water into a pipe or a ditch works well too.  Unfortunately we seem to be in a period where some thing a little sand is better than none (it's not) and surface drainage doesn't have to be that fast (it does), or you can sheet flow 2% unlimited distances (you can't).   Don't eff around with science.


All that money spent top dressing fairways would be much better spent adding drainage if dry is what you are looing for.

[SL_Solow]

Pat,  we should probably take this off line but let us be clear. Nobody tried to deify Mike Keiser although I confess to knowing him and liking him.  I simply suggested that he has expressed a desire to build on sand  and wondered whether this was an exception.  I know this to be true both from published accounts and from hearing him say it.  I note that you appear to have a problem with him.  Wondering why.

[Pete_Pittock]

  Cabot West or Cabot BC doesn't sound as good as Cabot Pacific...I assume putts will tend to break to the Pacific?


Would it be impossible or too costly to sand cap things there?   

Steve,
They will break towards the Pacific Ocean via the Columbia River. For what it is worth the Columbia will flow north, west, south and east before it ends at Cape Disappointment

[PCCraig]

Pat,  we should probably take this off line but let us be clear. Nobody tried to deify Mike Keiser although I confess to knowing him and liking him.  I simply suggested that he has expressed a desire to build on sand  and wondered whether this was an exception.  I know this to be true both from published accounts and from hearing him say it.  I note that you appear to have a problem with him.  Wondering why.

Shelly -


I have zero issue with Mike Keiser.


Tom above asked if he was having "mission creep", implying that he was moving on from the "sand/water/ocean" template his PR folks have trumpeted. Well - that's not really the case. He has invested in a wide variety of projects. That's fine with me, but the folks that think that MK is moving off his core type of project would be slightly mistaken.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Though Sunshine Village (Banff) and Lake Louise, along with Whistler/Blackcomb  were considered, for many years, the best of Canadian skiing, today Kicking Horse, Fernie, Red Mountain, and Revelstoke have eclipsed them for quality terrain plus snow quality.  Both Kicking Horse and Revelstoke are where most of the elite extreme skiers are based in Canada these days.  Though Lake Louise is an awesome mountain, because it is extremely cold from Mid-December to mid-February, the same storms that hit Kicking Horse, tend to deliver 30-40% less snow.  Though different  weather conditions, but this is the Canadian version of Alta getting 40% more snow than Deer Valley.  Revelstoke gets even more snow than Kicking Horse, and that is why it is him to quite a few heli skii operations along with three different Cat skiing operations as well

[Tom_Doak]

Though Sunshine Village (Banff) and Lake Louise, along with Whistler/Blackcomb  were considered, for many years, the best of Canadian skiing, today Kicking Horse, Fernie, Red Mountain, and Revelstoke have eclipsed them for quality terrain plus snow quality.  Both Kicking Horse and Revelstoke are where most of the elite extreme skiers are based in Canada these days.  Though Lake Louise is an awesome mountain, because it is extremely cold from Mid-December to mid-February, the same storms that hit Kicking Horse, tend to deliver 30-40% less snow.  Though different  weather conditions, but this is the Canadian version of Alta getting 40% more snow than Deer Valley.  Revelstoke gets even more snow than Kicking Horse, and that is why it is him to quite a few heli skii operations along with three different Cat skiing operations as well

Dors all of that mean that the golf season at Revelstoke is shorter?  Or does it get more snow because it's warmer?

[Pete_Pittock]

Climate graph indicates golf season should be April-September, but expect 2-3" of rain every month.
Getting there is going to be the problem. Major airports are Kamloops and Calgary, you can fly into Revelstoke, but the only runway is a peninsula in the river.  Full day drive by car. After I typed this figured it is probably as accessible as Inverness.

[Peter Pallotta]

Edit.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

As mentioned earlier, the elevation is low, so by March, it tends to consistently rain at the bottom, but snow above the mid-station of the gondola.  This past winter, I spent two weeks moving between Lake Louise, Kicking Horse and Revelstoke to hit fresh powder from the same storms.  My last day at Revelstoke was about 16" of great powder to the bottom of the Stoke chair, marginal snow below, and most experts taking the gondola down from the mid-station to avoid wet slush snow injury potential.  The lower parking lot is often a mud mess, so great drainage planning will probably have to be very extensive throughout the course

[Andrew Harvie]

Climate graph indicates golf season should be April-September, but expect 2-3" of rain every month.
Getting there is going to be the problem. Major airports are Kamloops and Calgary, you can fly into Revelstoke, but the only runway is a peninsula in the river.  Full day drive by car. After I typed this figured it is probably as accessible as Cabot.

My guess is they'll play April 15-October 15.


It's easier to fly into Kelowna and drive the 2 hours, 15 minutes. Direct flights from Seattle, Phoenix, Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, and I want to say San Francisco depending on the time of year. It's a busy airport for a busy little town

[Andrew Harvie]

Climate graph indicates golf season should be April-September, but expect 2-3" of rain every month.
Getting there is going to be the problem. Major airports are Kamloops and Calgary, you can fly into Revelstoke, but the only runway is a peninsula in the river.  Full day drive by car. After I typed this figured it is probably as accessible as Cabot.

My guess is they'll play April 15-October 15.


It's easier to fly into Kelowna and drive the 2 hours, 15 minutes. Direct flights from Seattle, Phoenix, Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, and I want to say San Francisco depending on the time of year. It's a busy airport for a busy little town. It'll be easier to get to than Cabot unless you fly into Calgary