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Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Unknown Unknowns
« on: October 21, 2020, 11:57:45 AM »
We’ve all probably read the Donald Rumsfeld quote before.

My questions are:

  • As an amateur enthusiast what are the things about GCA that I don’t know I don’t know? In other words, what are the elements of GCA that, as someone who is not a professional, I wouldn’t even think was something that needed to be considered/understood about building/designing/analysing a (great) golf course?
  • What are the best resources/materials/books/podcasts/conversations to digest to have a better grasp of these unknown unknowns?

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2020, 12:22:59 PM »
I would bet the Dark Arts of DRAINAGE are amongst the least known/studied/understood of all of the elements of GCArchitecture.
Not as sexy as history, not as glamorous as design, not as exciting as strategy. All hidden away, concealed from view like the shameful relative. Doing a vital job, day after day, with no praise, no glory, no appreciation. Yet, the moment it fails, all hell normally breaks loose!
A marvellous science all of its own, it really deserves much more appreciation than it gets.
Cheers,
Yours in mole draining,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2020, 12:41:08 PM »
Marty,

Good post, and certainly the details are a mystery, but how many of us on this site aren't aware of Drainage?  It seems for us on GCA, but not in the biz this would be in the Known - Unknown category, where we know its important but know little to nothing about how to do it. 

You're scrolling marquee made me think of this! I could imagine Jeff D giving some intern the business like this.  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmVzk5PHlP4

P.S.  I suspect in the behind-the-scenes business end of GCA, there are plenty of Unknown unknowns thou...

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2020, 12:44:51 PM »
For other aspects to the profession have a read through this thread - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67141.msg1604727.html#msg1604727 -
Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2020, 01:14:28 PM »
When everyone responds "Drainage" to this, I think it misses the whole point.


The point is to integrate drainage into the design so that everything works naturally.  But it seems like the lesson for many is that they have to spend $400,000 on inlet and pipe and that they have then addressed "Drainage" no matter how bad it looks or fits in.


And, of course, that also applies to other technical aspects of design and trying to integrate them seamlessly.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2020, 01:57:26 PM »
Before I started reading this site, two I would not have really "Known" were the importance of connector holes and the influence of the prevailing wind. But even after reading here, I still would not know how to evaluate tie ins.


Ira

Ben Malach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2020, 02:14:54 PM »
I think this piggy backs of drainage, but for me soils and turf selection are the two most unknown things when I talk to even the most in the loop guys.


Soils define everything that you can do on a site as even after an expensive sand cap durring construction you still have to work with the underlying soils to ensure drainage and that your profile works for growing the right grass.
@benmalach on Instagram and Twitter

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2020, 03:27:03 PM »
When everyone responds "Drainage" to this, I think it misses the whole point.


The point is to integrate drainage into the design so that everything works naturally.  But it seems like the lesson for many is that they have to spend $400,000 on inlet and pipe and that they have then addressed "Drainage" no matter how bad it looks or fits in.


And, of course, that also applies to other technical aspects of design and trying to integrate them seamlessly.


Tom,
My point was that Drainage is the least ‘known about’ by the great unwashed masses - it’s so invisible (when done properly!)
Of course it should start with clever surface contouring long before the water even gets underground!
M.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2020, 04:13:32 PM »
Soils, for the layman, should be the topic to dig deeper into.  Everything starts and ends with soils.  The commodity is grass and the soils will dictate the profitability of your crop(turf).  Here’s something to chew on....Turfgrass is the only crop commodity that is harvested daily.


The information is deep and vast with many caveats and moving parts to consider.  There are chemical and physical elements and they are tightly related on their interactions.  A one hour seminar isn’t even the tip of the iceberg.  I could direct you to several text books, but without the chemistry understanding and other necessary prerequisites, it might be jibberish.


Turf selection is pretty straightforward.  I would say that is a tap-in for almost all grass guys.  Soils...not so much.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2020, 04:47:04 PM »
Not to speak on Tim's behalf, but I think the OP was around things that us non-industry GCA guys don't know that we don't know.

Soil and drainage domains are no doubt complicated bits of GCA, but they are known.  Long before I joined GCA drainage was something I pondered in terms of how to get it right over such a large area. And even Dr. MacK knew he didn't know enough about soil composition to select turf himself.

What are examples of the unknown parts?  Or is this an issue of not wanting to share based on trade-secret concerns?  ;)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2020, 04:49:30 PM »
The only thing about soils is, pre 2000 or so, other than knowing it wasn't toxic, no one did much about the soils, with the prevalent feeling that you were basically stuck with the soils you had (other than greens of course) even if there was only 2" of it after clearing.


Maybe the amateur takeaway is you didn't know how many sleepless nights gca's spent until grass was grown in.


The other "amateur unknown" I always thought about since participating here (over 20 years ago!) was the number of times posters suggested there was a perfect routing on any given site.  The unknown is that every design has many compromises, and the best routing is probably the one with the fewest bad consequences to the Owner, all things considered.  Hard to conceive by many, but it be possible to pass on a hole like Cypress Point 16 if it caused too many other poor holes.  (luckily, it didn't!)


Another might be how important golfer, cart, maintenance circulation is to the final design.


Lastly, as TD says, the real skill of the gca is blending all the many facets together, properly addressing the importance and compromises of each, and do it in an artistic manner.  A few of you might understand all the design principles, but not many could apply them artistically.


And, that's just off the top of my head!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2020, 10:58:19 AM »
Following up, I was looking at some of my writings, and found this:


"There are no ten commandments of golf course architecture.  Even if there were, infinite variations in project conditions, client goals, and other things that happen, mean that architects, like sinners, consistently struggle to live up to more than eight of them in any one design."


 :)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2020, 12:04:25 PM »
I'll throw out a very shoulder shrugging answer which is a good superintendent. You could build the Taj Mahal, but without proper maintenance and upkeep it will deteriorate and morph into something for the worse over time. This also means giving a qualified guy and his crew a decent budget as well, can't pull a knife in a gun fight.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2020, 04:17:03 PM »
When everyone responds "Drainage" to this, I think it misses the whole point.


The point is to integrate drainage into the design so that everything works naturally.  But it seems like the lesson for many is that they have to spend $400,000 on inlet and pipe and that they have then addressed "Drainage" no matter how bad it looks or fits in.


And, of course, that also applies to other technical aspects of design and trying to integrate them seamlessly.


Tom,


I think I know the answer to this, but how does one go about learning/understanding how to make everything work naturally? Is there some good resources for novices, or is it a need of experience, being in the dirt, and have a more formalised education on some of these aspects because of their complexities as John E touches on?


Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2020, 04:19:48 PM »
Before I started reading this site, two I would not have really "Known" were the importance of connector holes and the influence of the prevailing wind. But even after reading here, I still would not know how to evaluate tie ins.


Ira


Ira, the evaluating tie-ins is something I'm not sure I fully understand. I 'think' I get it, but there's probably a quantum leap between me kinda being able to pick out if there is a bad tie-in, but that's about it. I suppose the purpose of a good tie-in is not knowing that something has been made to look seamless, but unless it's super obvious, I'm sure I could go around a course with a professional, and they would more easily be able to point out where work had been done / where things didn't quite gel.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2020, 04:26:51 PM »
When everyone responds "Drainage" to this, I think it misses the whole point.


The point is to integrate drainage into the design so that everything works naturally.  But it seems like the lesson for many is that they have to spend $400,000 on inlet and pipe and that they have then addressed "Drainage" no matter how bad it looks or fits in.


And, of course, that also applies to other technical aspects of design and trying to integrate them seamlessly.


Tom,
My point was that Drainage is the least ‘known about’ by the great unwashed masses - it’s so invisible (when done properly!)
Of course it should start with clever surface contouring long before the water even gets underground!
M.


Martin,


I've really enjoyed reading some of the 'Getting to 18' book as one chapter (think it's The Legends chapter) talks about drainage quite a bit and how he used contouring to minimise the amount of surface drains that would be required (at least I think that's what it was talking about :) ).


I wouldn't know the first thing about how to contour on a site that doesn't drain as well. Heck, I might not even know how to contour on a sandy site  ;D

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2020, 04:35:14 PM »

The other "amateur unknown" I always thought about since participating here (over 20 years ago!) was the number of times posters suggested there was a perfect routing on any given site.  The unknown is that every design has many compromises, and the best routing is probably the one with the fewest bad consequences to the Owner, all things considered.  Hard to conceive by many, but it be possible to pass on a hole like Cypress Point 16 if it caused too many other poor holes.  (luckily, it didn't!)


Another might be how important golfer, cart, maintenance circulation is to the final design.


Lastly, as TD says, the real skill of the gca is blending all the many facets together, properly addressing the importance and compromises of each, and do it in an artistic manner.  A few of you might understand all the design principles, but not many could apply them artistically.



Jeff,


Thanks for this! It is absolutely something I wouldn't know about, and that's why it's so interesting to read/hear about projects in their infancy, and how compromises have to be made (or not) to get a routing with the fewest negative consequences. I still love to read the story of Tom Paul and the would-have-been new Gulph Mills course that never came to be. All over the owner needing somewhere for his cattle to cross the course!


Here's the story for any interested:https://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/tom-paul-april-2012/


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2020, 03:37:51 AM »
I am far from convinced a very obviously man made feature is necessarily representative of poor architecture. That said, I can get very annoyed by greens dug into hillsides. Ignoring the potential draining issues, sometimes the grade meeting the green is too sharp. This makes it hard to cut the grass at a good length which then causes balls to settle in the seam. That to me is poor shaping. But there are relatively few things of this nature which rubs me the wrong way.

One area where an artistic eye really helps is where artificial sand meets water. So often there is a dreadful formal bunker in place. I generally dislike the idea of a saving bunker for water, but if the archie wants to do this he need to make sure it looks natural. There are obvious situations like this where if the archie can't pull it off then why do it?

In general though, I think too much emphasis these days is placed on seamless transitions between nature and man.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Unknown Unknowns
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2020, 10:23:41 AM »
I am far from convinced a very obviously man made feature is necessarily representative of poor architecture......

In general though, I think too much emphasis these days is placed on seamless transitions between nature and man.

Ciao


Sean,


I thought about this one a while over the weekend, starting Sunday morning, having my coffee on my patio, looking at my obviously artificial waterfall, but enjoying the heck out of in nonetheless.  This, after spending a summer 44 years ago working for a landscape firm whose specialties included waterfalls for homes, or entrances to subdivisions, office parks, etc.  The designers took great care to hide the source of the water, believing it enhanced the naturalness of it, and I bought that premise, placing a sharp turn in the stream before the fall to put the pump behind a mound, adding shrubs and overhanging scotch pines over the stream, etc.  It never seemed to dawn on them that the collection pond wasn't natural looking, or it would flow somewhere further downstream and out of sight, but I guess no one goes to Niagara Falls and looks downstream.


And why do I mention this?  Your comment above, and a realization that I still greatly enjoy my waterfall, even though it is (by the nature of the space available) only a 20 foot long, 6 foot deep BMU covered with nicer stones production.  Why?  I like the look and sound of flowing water, and the designer put it up close and personal where I could enjoy it.


As it applies to golf design, I guess every gca is a sum product of all things they have experienced.  So, I come from a landscape design program at University of Illinois.  Their most famous graduate was Hideo Sasaki.  His most famous quote is, "The earth is putty." Add in apprenticing under two U of I grads, also typical of the 1950's golf as landscape architecture school, which was defined then (the environmental codas date from Earth Day 1970) "arranging landscape elements for specific human uses."


Short version, if you look at a lot of my work, yes, I am not afraid to leave "very obviously man made features" as parts of my design.  I recall a philosophical discussion with a golf architect critic, who thought my work was sort of "Japanese" style.  In Japanese gardening, there are lots of really artificial elements, and the eastern mindset is that the eye will fool the brain into seeing them as natural.  My reviewer noticed that if I wanted to turn a fairway, I had no hesitation to just build a mound/earth form to back up, support, turn the fw, even though it was fairly obvious it was built.  Why?  Because I thought people participating in the specific human activity of (public) golf probably needed or at least appreciated it.


And practically, what is the other option?  I think we have discussed it before, but either you build what you need and stop, or you try to enhance the illusion of natural by extending the artificial contours all the way down the fw to convince the eye that was the landscape before you put the golf hole in.  Obviously, the compromise solution is to just build the earth form to the dimension to turn the corner, and then try to make it look naturalistic, in part by tying slopes in more gracefully as possible, something I have failed to do on occasion. That might be what you are referring to as a "seamless" transition and in limited doses, of course it's worthwhile.


On the other hand, it is also true that the most noticeable elements in any art, the highlights of a scene are often the incongruous ones, and sometimes, you may be better off artistically by accenting the land in just the right places. 


As to your water/bunker idea, first, I question the idea of a hazard guarding a hazard, but sometimes do them on longer approach shots.  Many have tried beach bunkers as a tie between land and water, but they really don't stay in place long.  You have to build a shelf below water to hold the sand in, any drain tiles are by default under normal water level and thus don't work, and the capillary action of water in sand makes the bottom of the bunker wet, i.e., the save bunker sometimes gets so hard the ball bounces or rolls though to the water anyway.  I agree it would be nicer to really over shape the bank below the bunker to preclude mowing, but it doesn't happen all that often.


Lastly, yes, transition slopes off greens are something I have learned (but still have to point out to shapers sometimes) that is important.  The last 10 feet of green needs to "swoop" up at less than 10%, and the first 10+ feet outside the green can gradually increase from 10-20%, but if you go from 3% green to 30% mound just off the green, you create a constant mowing problem.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach