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David_Elvins

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Is there a great par 4 or par 5 with a bunker in front of the green?


If not, what hole comes closest, can you have a decent hole with a bunker in front of the green?
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Tim Martin

  • Total Karma: 1
CC of Charleston 16- “Lions Mouth” par four plays 464/436 from back and member tees.

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -5
David,
I could literally name hundreds of them! What is your point or concern about a bunker in the front of a green?

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
I assume you mean all the way across the front, so there's no chance to bounce the ball onto the green.


And you are right, few of the famous great holes have a feature like this.  The only one of the famous templates that does is the Alps:  so the 3rd at NGLA and the 17th at Prestwick would lead the conversation.


The other one that came to mind was the 9th at Brancaster.


Pine Valley has a bunch of these but that course always gets exceptions to the rules!

David_Elvins

  • Total Karma: 0
David,
I could literally name hundreds of them! What is your point or concern about a bunker in the front of a green?


Point of concern would be that the best courses I have played don't have any bunkers in front of the green.  (I dont think there is a hole on the top 5 courses in Australia with a bunker in front of the green.)


From a theoretical point of view I assume the major issue would be how do you get a course playing firm enough to make the course interesting for good players but soft enough to make it playable for average players. 

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David_Elvins

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I assume you mean all the way across the front, so there's no chance to bounce the ball onto the green.


For the point of the exercise I am willing to accept any hole that has a bunker covering more than half of the front of the green from the preferred side of the fairway. 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 08:19:30 PM by David_Elvins »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

David Ober

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David,
I could literally name hundreds of them! What is your point or concern about a bunker in the front of a green?


We've really gone too far with this "Every hole should be reachable with the ground game" stuff. I love the ground game. Love it. Loved all the Bandon courses. Rustic Canyon is one of my all-time favorites. I hit a low ball and I no longer hit it very far at all.


Yet ... I love the challenge of having to loft a ball and stop it quickly to a well-bunkered green once or twice a round. And I don't care if the entire front is a bunker. It's irrelevant, in fact. One or two holes a round is fine. Why would anyone object to that? Because you're going to make an 8 every time you can't run it on the green?


That just makes no sense to me. And again, I love landing the ball short and will do it plenty when a hole gives me that option.

Matt Kardash

  • Total Karma: 1
4 and 5 at Bethpage Black come to mind.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -5
David,
I am playing Merion next week and I can think of at least three holes there that are great golf holes with bunkers fronting the green, the par five 4th, the par four 8th and the famous 16th.  I played Philly CC yesterday and they have several great holes as well that have bunkers fronting the green.  Should I keep going 😊

David Ober

  • Total Karma: 0
David,
I am playing Merion next week and I can think of at least three holes there that are great golf holes with bunkers fronting the green, the par five 4th, the par four 8th and the famous 16th.  I played Philly CC yesterday and they have several great holes as well that have bunkers fronting the green.  Should I keep going 😊


Okay, I was starting to warm to you, Mr. Fine, but this ... this disgusting, flashy display of your privilege ...




















Can I come?

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11


We've really gone too far with this "Every hole should be reachable with the ground game" stuff. I love the ground game. Love it. Loved all the Bandon courses. Rustic Canyon is one of my all-time favorites. I hit a low ball and I no longer hit it very far at all.



But the whole point of this thread (I think) is that nearly all of the truly great holes DO NOT NEED a bunker in front of the green to be great.

David Ober

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We've really gone too far with this "Every hole should be reachable with the ground game" stuff. I love the ground game. Love it. Loved all the Bandon courses. Rustic Canyon is one of my all-time favorites. I hit a low ball and I no longer hit it very far at all.



But the whole point of this thread (I think) is that nearly all of the truly great holes DO NOT NEED a bunker in front of the green to be great.


Well I certainly agree with the second part of your post. But the first part, not as much.. The thread presupposes that there might not be a single "great" hole on earth that has a fronting bunker. And that, to me, is absurd.


I love many holes with fronting bunkers/hazards. I especially love when they are placed late in a round. I love when a hole calls on your to execute a shot when the chips are down. I definitely prefer a hole where you have some room to bail out, certainly, but I prefer that if you do, you will have a very tough pitch to recover (turning a par 4 into a 4.5, say). However, if you pull off the shot (over a bunker, a hazard, etc.), you might make a birdie and square your match or go 1-up, etc.


I loved 17 at Bandon Dunes for that reason -- mostly and especially with a front pin. It's not fronted by a bunker, but by a ravine (gasp!). Two-thirds of it -- maybe a touch less. But even if it was 80% or even 100%, I would still love the hole -- especially to a front-right pin. You have to choose. Choose to take on the front ravine AND the ravine on the right, or bail out left, chip/pitch up, and hope you make your 6-footer. It challenges you to choose and then if you choose aggressively, to execute.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 01:04:31 AM by David Ober »

James Brown

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How about [size=78%]Pebble Beach #18?[/size]

David_Elvins

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David,
I am playing Merion next week and I can think of at least three holes there that are great golf holes with bunkers fronting the green, the par five 4th, the par four 8th and the famous 16th.  I played Philly CC yesterday and they have several great holes as well that have bunkers fronting the green.  Should I keep going 😊


16 at Merion is a good nomination.  Definitely a very interesting golf hole but one I have often thought would need a great deal of study to know if it actually plays like a great golf hole.  As for 8, surely that being the worst hole on the course is partly due to the front bunker?  Quite the let down after 7. 


Philly CC has some amazing green contours but you may be setting a low bar here. Isn't it an interesting course despite having a few holes with fronting bunkers? Not because of the fronting bunkers?
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David_Elvins

  • Total Karma: 0
Yet ... I love the challenge of having to loft a ball and stop it quickly to a well-bunkered green once or twice a round. And I don't care if the entire front is a bunker. It's irrelevant, in fact. One or two holes a round is fine. Why would anyone object to that? Because you're going to make an 8 every time you can't run it on the green?


"The challenge of having to loft the ball and stop it quickly"...
...For a good player that might be a 250 yard shot, for another player it might be a 80 yard shot... 


Surely a fronting bunker is poor way to test this skill seeing you will only really be challenging the small subset of people who will be approaching the green from a distance that they will find to be an interesting challenge? For everyone else it either too easy or too impossible. 


If you disagree, I am happy for you to nominate some holes.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

David Ober

  • Total Karma: 0
Yet ... I love the challenge of having to loft a ball and stop it quickly to a well-bunkered green once or twice a round. And I don't care if the entire front is a bunker. It's irrelevant, in fact. One or two holes a round is fine. Why would anyone object to that? Because you're going to make an 8 every time you can't run it on the green?


"The challenge of having to loft the ball and stop it quickly"...
...For a good player that might be a 250 yard shot, for another player it might be a 80 yard shot... 


Surely a fronting bunker is poor way to test this skill seeing you will only really be challenging the small subset of people who will be approaching the green from a distance that they will find to be an interesting challenge? For everyone else it either too easy or too impossible. 


If you disagree, I am happy for you to nominate some holes.


Shouldn't we all be playing tees appropriate to our ability such that we are in generally the same place hitting such a shot? At least within 30 to 50 yards of one another?

And if not, then we're playing at scratch from the same tees. Or you're (likely) getting a handicap stroke on such a hole. What's the problem? If it's a scratch tournament, I certainly don't complain that I have to hit a 5-wood from 195 when a fellow competitor might have an 9-iron from 155. We both have to get the ball in the air and stop it to the best of our ability.

As to "nominating some holes," that's a tough ask with this crowd, since its virtually impossible for there to be such a hole, evidently. Additionally, I've only played maybe a dozen or so "top courses" in the world in my lifetime. I will, nevertheless, take an inventory of the courses I have played that may offer up a hole that I consider to be exceptional.

Tim Leahy

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10 at Riviera and 8, 14 and 18 at Pebble.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

David Ober

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10 at Riviera and 8 & 18 at Pebble.


I was going to say 10 at Riviera, but didn't know if the bunkers covered enough of the front.


Also, was wondering if a hazard counts, or does it have to be a bunker, specifically? To be clear...

Thomas Dai

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9th at Westward Ho!
atb

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -5
Sorry David, it has been tough to get around this year due to Covid to see a lot of courses.  I am happy to at least get to see a few good ones of late.

It is all about variety but I very much agree with the comment that a great hole doesn’t need a bunker or a hazard in front of it to be great.  There should be zero argument (even on this site) about that. 


What makes the 8th at Merion a great hole is that daunting bunker that flanks the green.  If every hole was like that it would suck but it’s not.  The 8th is a very short four and you need to execute a precise shot to safety reach the green. I understand there are few if any options but an aerial shot but that is ok sometimes.  The 17th at TPC Sawgrass is the same. If there were island greens scattered all over the course it would suck but there are not. Avoiding repetition in course design is good (except when there is one great hole after another)  :)  It is nice when the holes all offer different challenges.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 07:24:22 AM by Mark_Fine »

Tim Martin

  • Total Karma: 1
I would think a course like Pine Tree could make the argument against the original premise.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
I think there are a few, Mark. Whilst on the surface, such a hazard does not encourage the ground game, there are loads more nuances that can make a hole strategic and great.


Perhaps the best hole on my home course is the only one where you really can’t bounce it up: The 14th at Portmarnock.


It is a great hole.

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -5
David,
I am into quoting Donald Ross this morning -  :)


Ross had only a few design standards but one of them was this:


"Make each hole present a different problem for the player to solve".


This goes back to my point about avoiding repetition of design features.  A hole or two or maybe even three with fronting hazards in 18 holes is probably not repetitive and fulfills Ross' standard of presenting different challenges to take on and solve. 




David Ober

  • Total Karma: 0
Sorry David, it has been tough to get around this year due to Covid to see a lot of courses.  I am happy to at least get to see a few good ones of late.

It is all about variety but I very much agree with the comment that a great hole doesn’t need a bunker or a hazard in front of it to be great.  There should be zero argument (even on this site) about that. 


What makes the 8th at Merion a great hole is that daunting bunker that flanks the green.  If every hole was like that it would suck but it’s not.  The 8th is a very short four and you need to execute a precise shot to safety reach the green. I understand there are few if any options but an aerial shot but that is ok sometimes.  The 17th at TPC Sawgrass is the same. If there were island greens scattered all over the course it would suck but there are not. Avoiding repetition in course design is good (except when there is one great hole after another)  :)  It is nice when the holes all offer different challenges.


Mark, you did scroll to the bottom of my post, I hope. Where I asked "Can I come?" ;-)

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -5
David,
I saw that :)  I probably shouldn't have even mentioned I am playing there as I am already starting to get emails from friends as to why they didn't make the short list to join me  :(