[Tom ORourke]

I have a question for those of you familiar with Bermuda greens. I live in South Carolina and our club has two courses. We usually try to get the courses in good shape for Masters week as we get a lot of guests that week. Right after that is aerification. Great. Two weeks later there is a verticutting and more sand added. That is fine. But for the past three years we have been verticutting the greens every other week until we aerify in the fall. Each week he takes turns roughing up one course followed by the other one the next week. Our greens are never smooth nor fast. And then we over-seed so the course still is in less than great shape. Our superintendent has just put out a video saying the course is getting in great shape for November so it will be easy to get in shape for spring. To my mind November - May is not golf season. May through October is golf season to me. I think we should leave the greens alone for a two or three month stretch in summer so we have a summer season of good greens. Are there a lot of courses that verticut every other week from May through September? And we are not talking about tiny punch holes. It is more like holes with the grain rubbed the wrong way. It seems like he is trying to get the grain out, but I don't think that is needed. Our standing joke is that we are members of Transition Golf Club as the course is always being worked on like a grass growing experiment with no feel for playabilty, and in transition between how it is and where he is trying to take it. Are we alone or is this more standard than we think? I doubt our stimpmeter reading hit 10 more than 5 times all summer. We have a lot of grass on the greens, and we own a roller, but still slow all summer. Comments? Thanks.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Do you have a grounds and greens committee and a chair?
What do they say?


What does your board say?


Or, are you putting together "ammo" from here so you can send the real Shit-o-Gram to the club later...?...;-)

[John Emerson]

I have a question for those of you familiar with Bermuda greens. I live in South Carolina and our club has two courses. We usually try to get the courses in good shape for Masters week as we get a lot of guests that week. Right after that is aerification. Great. Two weeks later there is a verticutting and more sand added. That is fine. But for the past three years we have been verticutting the greens every other week until we aerify in the fall. Each week he takes turns roughing up one course followed by the other one the next week. Our greens are never smooth nor fast. And then we over-seed so the course still is in less than great shape. Our superintendent has just put out a video saying the course is getting in great shape for November so it will be easy to get in shape for spring. To my mind November - May is not golf season. May through October is golf season to me. I think we should leave the greens alone for a two or three month stretch in summer so we have a summer season of good greens. Are there a lot of courses that verticut every other week from May through September? And we are not talking about tiny punch holes. It is more like holes with the grain rubbed the wrong way. It seems like he is trying to get the grain out, but I don't think that is needed. Our standing joke is that we are members of Transition Golf Club as the course is always being worked on like a grass growing experiment with no feel for playabilty, and in transition between how it is and where he is trying to take it. Are we alone or is this more standard than we think? I doubt our stimpmeter reading hit 10 more than 5 times all summer. We have a lot of grass on the greens, and we own a roller, but still slow all summer. Comments? Thanks.

Something is wrong if you’re aerifying Bermuda greens in the fall.  Either you have bentgrass greens or you didn’t explain the situation clearly enough.  FWIW I know some top 100 supers who verticut weekly.  Albeit a tickle more than a cut.






“Guessing” what the green speed is without a stimpmeter isn’t a sound practice either.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I have a question for those of you familiar with Bermuda greens. I live in South Carolina and our club has two courses. We usually try to get the courses in good shape for Masters week as we get a lot of guests that week. Right after that is aerification. Great. Two weeks later there is a verticutting and more sand added. That is fine. But for the past three years we have been verticutting the greens every other week until we aerify in the fall. Each week he takes turns roughing up one course followed by the other one the next week. Our greens are never smooth nor fast. And then we over-seed so the course still is in less than great shape. Our superintendent has just put out a video saying the course is getting in great shape for November so it will be easy to get in shape for spring. To my mind November - May is not golf season. May through October is golf season to me. I think we should leave the greens alone for a two or three month stretch in summer so we have a summer season of good greens. Are there a lot of courses that verticut every other week from May through September? And we are not talking about tiny punch holes. It is more like holes with the grain rubbed the wrong way. It seems like he is trying to get the grain out, but I don't think that is needed. Our standing joke is that we are members of Transition Golf Club as the course is always being worked on like a grass growing experiment with no feel for playabilty, and in transition between how it is and where he is trying to take it. Are we alone or is this more standard than we think? I doubt our stimpmeter reading hit 10 more than 5 times all summer. We have a lot of grass on the greens, and we own a roller, but still slow all summer. Comments? Thanks.

If you’re not doing some sort of verticutting, topdressing or aerify during the growing season on Bermuda grass....you’re probably falling behind.


And as you said, “we have a lot of grass....” probably means it’s not aggressive enough or needs to do more. 1 summer of minimal cultural practices can result in numerous summers of removing the thatch, grain & organic material.

[Tom_Doak]

The trade-off for all these great new grasses [ultradwarf bermudas but also the ultradwarf bents] is that they are so aggressive in building up thatch that they require a more aggressive cultural program to keep them at their best.  So you've got to put up with lots of days when they're not at their best.


They always forget to put that in the brochure!  But you don't want thatchy greens.

[Tom ORourke]

Yes, we have Bermuda. Two different strains as the courses were built a few years apart by different architects. And I am not putting ammo together. I have a very cordial relationship with our superintendent and we discuss things freely, often, and nicely. I am trying to educate myself to our strains as my first 45 years of golf were on northern bent grass courses. His explanation is usually about thatch and build up. I have played a number of southern courses over the past ten years, mostly Atlanta, Hilton Head, Charlotte, Myrtle Beach, and some years ago I used to be a frequent summer guest at Pine Tree, so I value your answers. I know of some Texas courses that aerify three times a summer.  In New Jersey we seemed do do a spring and fall punch and leave the course alone in between, but obviously bent is different. The comment about a tickle more than a cut may be correct. Some places seem to have a light punch with small holes once a month or so, but we always seem to be rather heavy handed, with a heavy dose of sand quite a few times during summer. And our board is fairly useless. We are owned by Club Corp so directives come from the GM and no other opinion matters. You can complain about the slowness of the greens and the GM says they are fast, and that is the end of that discussion. The general feel is that the course looks good, but playability is not where it should be unless it is spring or late fall. Five miles away Palmetto is running around 13 and the River Club in Augusta is the same, and we are at 9. I am not sure why we can't get to 10-11 in summer on smooth greens instead of in winter when nothing is growing anymore. The courses are around 30 years old so the grasses are not brand new. Bent originally but converted to Bermuda around 20 years ago. One of them has tifdwarf so the best practices on them should be fairly standard. Thanks for the answers. Now I can continue my talks with our guy.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Yes, we have Bermuda. Two different strains as the courses were built a few years apart by different architects. And I am not putting ammo together. I have a very cordial relationship with our superintendent and we discuss things freely, often, and nicely. I am trying to educate myself to our strains as my first 45 years of golf were on northern bent grass courses. His explanation is usually about thatch and build up. I have played a number of southern courses over the past ten years, mostly Atlanta, Hilton Head, Charlotte, Myrtle Beach, and some years ago I used to be a frequent summer guest at Pine Tree, so I value your answers. I know of some Texas courses that aerify three times a summer.  In New Jersey we seemed do do a spring and fall punch and leave the course alone in between, but obviously bent is different. The comment about a tickle more than a cut may be correct. Some places seem to have a light punch with small holes once a month or so, but we always seem to be rather heavy handed, with a heavy dose of sand quite a few times during summer. And our board is fairly useless. We are owned by Club Corp so directives come from the GM and no other opinion matters. You can complain about the slowness of the greens and the GM says they are fast, and that is the end of that discussion. The general feel is that the course looks good, but playability is not where it should be unless it is spring or late fall. Five miles away Palmetto is running around 13 and the River Club in Augusta is the same, and we are at 9. I am not sure why we can't get to 10-11 in summer on smooth greens instead of in winter when nothing is growing anymore. The courses are around 30 years old so the grasses are not brand new. Bent originally but converted to Bermuda around 20 years ago. One of them has tifdwarf so the best practices on them should be fairly standard. Thanks for the answers. Now I can continue my talks with our guy.

  When I was Supt at Pine Tree, we verticut & topdressed every 2 weeks, religiously. We also core aerified with 3/4" tines in June & August, which resulted in about a 3 week heal time. Because of that, we remained closed for 10-12days each time. Very similar program during my time at Old Marsh.
  We have core aerified greens 4x this summer w/ 3/4" tines. 9 holes open at a time. A lot of work needed to be done to remove thatch & organic material. This is on top of verticutting & topdressing.
  Most ultradwarfs require much more maintenance that originally thought. I think this is why some 36 hole facilities build in the late 1990s, early 2000 had 1, 18hole course with bent, 1 with bermudagrass; giving a better chance to have acceptable playing conditions year round.
  Lastly, I'm interested as to where you're getting your stimp meter reading numbers from. It takes A LOT of work to get ultradwarfs to run 13' in the heat of the summer & unless there is a state event or equivalent, I'm just not sure what the necessity would be. Multiple growth regulators in a short window, lots of rolling, brushing, grooming, LOW mowing heights (sub .085") afternoon mowing. 11.5-12' would be a good summer number.

[Jim Lipstate]

My club has miniverde bermuda and our super typically aerifies three times yearly. Big holes once or twice each summer and the small holes the other times. We typically defer major aerification until June and end the aerification program in August. Bermuda grows the best in warm weather and in my experience the healing time is greatly prolonged when done in the early spring or in the fall when the weather begins to cool. We topdress very regularly during the growing season and verticut several times but I am uncertain of the exact schedule.
Our greens have very little thatch and are typically fast and firm but hold a well struck shot. Bermuda always has significant grain and you just adapt your putting accordingly.

[Kyle Harris]

My advice is to find a golf club whose opinion of what is and is not the golf season matches your own.

Frankly, the turf doesn't care.

[A.G._Crockett]

Speaking as a guy who:a. can't grow grass in his own yardb. plays a fair amount of local tournaments on Bermuda greensc. has a son who is an assistant super at a course that hosts some pretty significant events

1. I truly believe that supers want the greens at their course to be perfect, and are pretty religious about adopting "best practices" to make that happen.  But "best practices" aren't static, and supers are constantly monitoring all sorts of things; thatch, hot spots, water content in the soil, and so on.  A super who doesn't tweak what his crew is doing to the greens should go ahead and update his resume.
2. Golfers wildly underestimate the amount of work that has to be done to keep grass that is cut low enough to be a putting green healthy.  There should be a pool to see how long after aerification a member will say to the super, "Why did you punch the greens?  They were perfect!"
3. Golfers conflate what they see on TV with what the greens should be at their course, and not only in terms of speeds; they don't see the work that goes into getting the greens to those onditions OR the work that has to be done after the event.  And, if asked, they will typically underestimate the speed at which the greens at their course are running.  But in any case, it isn't much consolation to a super to say, "Well, just before I was fired for losing the greens, they were really running FAST!"
4. Significantly, this particular summer has been a laboratory for growing Bermuda grasses; day after day of high humidity and temperatures, along with unusually heavy rainfall.  Here in NC, where we had 50% more rain than average for July and August, plus temps in the 90's EVERY day, I've never seen the fairways and rough so lush, BUT I've also noticed that the Bermuda greens, even at some of the high end places, do not seem to be running at the "normal" summer speeds.  I don't know whether this is because of the speed at which the grass is growing, or if it's because of tweaks to the maintenance practices, or just anecdotal, but that is how it has seemed to me.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Tony/Kyle,


A related question, why are southern courses constantly switching ultradwarf varieties to find that "magic bullet"? For example Sawgrass made a big deal about going from bent to ultradwarf, then two years later blew it all up again to switch ultradwarfs. I believe Streamsong is doing the same. What causes these courses to throw up their hands and switch?

[Mike_Young]

I have a very cordial relationship with our superintendent and we discuss things freely, often, and nicely.

Does he read GCA? 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tony/Kyle,


A related question, why are southern courses constantly switching ultradwarf varieties to find that "magic bullet"? For example Sawgrass made a big deal about going from bent to ultradwarf, then two years later blew it all up again to switch ultradwarfs. I believe Streamsong is doing the same. What causes these courses to throw up their hands and switch?

I believe that TPC installed mini in 2006 and removed it in 2016 (I think) It was removed them & switched to Tifeagle when the course renovated. From what I have gathered, in general, there have been some issues with Mini Verde over the years for whatever reason, but in general, off types get into the putting surfaces more than other grasses, causing inconsistencies.


Kyle is the Supt over the Red/Blue at Streamsong. They switched grasses this summer since they originally grassed in 2012 (I think) He can give more details.


Many Northern courses have the same grass on the collars as greens, therefore there isnt any creep or concern with aerification or cross contamination.

[jeffwarne]

I do have to wonder, if you consider "May thru October" to be golf season, why you left the northeast...(or wherever you played your cool season grass golf)
I'm quite sure many in Aiken come down just for the November-April months you reference as "not golf season"



Palmetto does an excellent [size=78%]job of serving both masters, providing excellent turf in both seasons, with of course predictable periods of minor disruption.[/size]
As a member at Palmetto for 30 plus years, and having grown up and worked  in bermuda grass country, I understand the balancing act clubs go through for good year round golf, especially those that overseed.
I'd be surprised if Palmetto's greens were running "13" in the summer as the slopes on #4.5,6 12 etc, even 1 and 2 would make that problematic. I've seen them approach that in dormant periods in the winter where no growth coupled with frost(and no overseed) can have them approach that, and it doesn't make Palmetto better. Palmetto has been outstanding for the 40 plus years(and continues to be) I've been playing there, it has challenging pins available at nearly every speed they have maintained over the years. Sure they've gotten faster over time, but it's not like there weren't fast putts back in the day, and they had a wider variety of useable pin placements available on a daily basis.
Reading numbers like "13"normalized scares the crap out of me. (or even higher-I was seeing 17.5 at Oakmont thrown around the other day)The world has lost enough great greens -we don't need to lose more, especially when we're already are losing many great pins-to say nothing of the cost of acquiring/maintaining that speed.


I'm no agronomist, but I suspect your superintendent is attempting to address the very problem you describe, that there is too much grass/grain/thatch on the greens. I would assume that's best done when the grass is growing, but I defer to Anthony and other turf experts .Anecdotally, this was an incredibly hot/humid /wet summer down south for a looong time, which can't help the issue

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Tony/Kyle,


A related question, why are southern courses constantly switching ultradwarf varieties to find that "magic bullet"? For example Sawgrass made a big deal about going from bent to ultradwarf, then two years later blew it all up again to switch ultradwarfs. I believe Streamsong is doing the same. What causes these courses to throw up their hands and switch?

I believe that TPC installed mini in 2006 and removed it in 2016 (I think) It was removed them & switched to Tifeagle when the course renovated. From what I have gathered, in general, there have been some issues with Mini Verde over the years for whatever reason, but in general, off types get into the putting surfaces more than other grasses, causing inconsistencies.


Kyle is the Supt over the Red/Blue at Streamsong. They switched grasses this summer since they originally grassed in 2012 (I think) He can give more details.


Many Northern courses have the same grass on the collars as greens, therefore there isnt any creep or concern with aerification or cross contamination.

So other bermudas? Common? Or other ultradwarfs? Do fairway bermudas spread via seed or is it just vegetatively? Would it be helpful to have an ultradwarf green, then an ultradwarf approach/collar of the same species (higher HOC) to push the contamination out from the green?

[Anthony_Nysse]

   Generally speaking-yes. Whatever grass is in the collar/fwy or even rough. Its really hard to keep the soil sterile & with all the cultural practices that ultradwarfs need, it can be hard to keep them clean over time.

   We had tifeagle collars & approaches at Pine Tree with the thought of being able to keep the encroachment off the putting surface, but the surrounding grass just crept into the collars. In the winter months, even at higher heights, using turning boards & keeping growth regulators off the collars, the definition was not there-we had to use yellow dots to identify collars for events.
At Old Marsh, we had Latitude 36 collars & after 2 seasons, we replaced the greens cleanups to redefine the edges. The L36 tolerated the low mowing heights. Certain grasses have held off the contamination better than others, but most programs are better off when they start from day one & you're removing off types every summer-a little at a time as you see it. Weekly greens edging & pulling runners help hold off establishment of off types, too.
 

[SB]

If you put 10 superintendents in a room you will have 12 opinions on aerification.   
My course has Champion Bermuda.  About 8 years ago we had a big problem with thatch, so we went to extreme measures to clean it up.  We aerated with large tines in two directions, then used a Graden (basically a verticutter on steroids), also in two directions.  Then sanded like crazy.  It was basically unplayable for a week, barely puttable for two weeks, then quite unpleasant for another month.  We now have fantastic greens with deep roots and we only aerate once a year in late July.  No verticutting, and only light topdressing now and then.  Minimal thatch.  We also fertilize a lot less than others, which I think is the key.  It works for us.
Keep in mind that practices for South Florida will be different than the transition zone where you are.  The growing season is longer, and they can shut down the course in the summer.  In Atlanta we don't have that luxury.  We have to be perfect through August, when things slow down for college football.  And in Aiken, if I'm not mistaken, isn't most of the play in the shoulder season?  If that's the case, then the super may be doing all of the work in the summer so the spring and fall can be perfect.

[Anthony_Nysse]

If you put 10 superintendents in a room you will have 12 opinions on aerification.   
My course has Champion Bermuda.  About 8 years ago we had a big problem with thatch, so we went to extreme measures to clean it up.  We aerated with large tines in two directions, then used a Graden (basically a verticutter on steroids), also in two directions.  Then sanded like crazy.  It was basically unplayable for a week, barely puttable for two weeks, then quite unpleasant for another month.  We now have fantastic greens with deep roots and we only aerate once a year in late July.  No verticutting, and only light topdressing now and then.  Minimal thatch.  We also fertilize a lot less than others, which I think is the key.  It works for us.
Keep in mind that practices for South Florida will be different than the transition zone where you are.  The growing season is longer, and they can shut down the course in the summer.  In Atlanta we don't have that luxury.  We have to be perfect through August, when things slow down for college football.  And in Aiken, if I'm not mistaken, isn't most of the play in the shoulder season?  If that's the case, then the super may be doing all of the work in the summer so the spring and fall can be perfect.

Sure. The course I cut my teeth at in Hilton Head closes for 3 weeks in July to complete 2 aerifications. Tifeagle. But I think that this shows the difference between Champion & some of the other varieties, too. Though Champion has some shortcomings, too. Im not sure there is a real, tried & true UD. Qualities & drawbacks can be found in them all.

[John Emerson]

I love trying to help golfers and laymen try to understand the agronomy side better.  It’s actually one of my favorite things to do.  I will help and help until I’m blue in the face.  But what I hate, especially on this board, is when it seems like disgruntled Or know-it-all members are looking to get ammo to debunk, show-up, or even throw supers under the bus for something they don’t know a thing about.  This makes me furious.  Why even have a superintendent if certain members seem know better than the professional?  Just have the members run the place and play superintendent. Save yourself thousands and thousands in salary and do it yourself.  Boom problem solved.  You think if he read this thread he be tickled pink?

[Adam Lawrence]

If you put 10 superintendents in a room you will have 12 opinions on aerification.   
My course has Champion Bermuda.  About 8 years ago we had a big problem with thatch, so we went to extreme measures to clean it up.  We aerated with large tines in two directions, then used a Graden (basically a verticutter on steroids), also in two directions.  Then sanded like crazy.  It was basically unplayable for a week, barely puttable for two weeks, then quite unpleasant for another month.  We now have fantastic greens with deep roots and we only aerate once a year in late July.  No verticutting, and only light topdressing now and then.  Minimal thatch.  We also fertilize a lot less than others, which I think is the key.  It works for us.
Keep in mind that practices for South Florida will be different than the transition zone where you are.  The growing season is longer, and they can shut down the course in the summer.  In Atlanta we don't have that luxury.  We have to be perfect through August, when things slow down for college football.  And in Aiken, if I'm not mistaken, isn't most of the play in the shoulder season?  If that's the case, then the super may be doing all of the work in the summer so the spring and fall can be perfect.

Sure. The course I cut my teeth at in Hilton Head closes for 3 weeks in July to complete 2 aerifications. Tifeagle. But I think that this shows the difference between Champion & some of the other varieties, too. Though Champion has some shortcomings, too. Im not sure there is a real, tried & true UD. Qualities & drawbacks can be found in them all.

Tony -- presumably you're familiar with the new Mach 1 ultradwarf that Rusty Mercer has just installed at Streamsong. Thoughts?

[JMEvensky]

Also interested in any Mach 1 opinions.

[BCrosby]

Also interested in any Mach 1 opinions.

Me too.

[A.G._Crockett]

I love trying to help golfers and laymen try to understand the agronomy side better.  It’s actually one of my favorite things to do.  I will help and help until I’m blue in the face.  But what I hate, especially on this board, is when it seems like disgruntled Or know-it-all members are looking to get ammo to debunk, show-up, or even throw supers under the bus for something they don’t know a thing about.  This makes me furious.  Why even have a superintendent if certain members seem know better than the professional?  Just have the members run the place and play superintendent. Save yourself thousands and thousands in salary and do it yourself.  Boom problem solved.  You think if he read this thread he be tickled pink?

Well said!

[Lou_Duran]

I love trying to help golfers and laymen try to understand the agronomy side better.  It’s actually one of my favorite things to do.  I will help and help until I’m blue in the face.  But what I hate, especially on this board, is when it seems like disgruntled Or know-it-all members are looking to get ammo to debunk, show-up, or even throw supers under the bus for something they don’t know a thing about.  This makes me furious.  Why even have a superintendent if certain members seem know better than the professional?  Just have the members run the place and play superintendent. Save yourself thousands and thousands in salary and do it yourself.  Boom problem solved.  You think if he read this thread he be tickled pink?

Well said!

Really?  I found the comments overly generalized and needlessly accusatory.  What is it about the golf superintendent profession that shields its practitioners from questions, second guessing, and criticisms from people who pay for their services?  Many of us who have advanced degrees, professional certifications, and many years of successful practical experience  are certainly not granted these courtesies or protections.


Scott B notes something which I have observed over and over- you ask X number of superintendents a question on a variety of subjects and you are likely to get as many different answers.  Part of this may be due to how they are trained, but more importantly, to the specific characteristics of the courses they maintain, not limited only to micro-climate, soil, water, and turf types, but also to membership composition, expectations, budgets, and the life cycle of the club and the course.


As an example, my home club has a highly regarded superintendent and his calling card is our Tifeagle greens.  Right now they are firm, smooth, and running around 12' with minimal grain for their age, 19 years.  He aerates deeply with a large tine three times annually- the Monday and Tuesday after the Masters, in June after the Member-Guest, and in August after the Member-Member (The Inferno).


The whining is loud and frequent through late May/early June, especially if the spring is cool and wet.  It picks up again through the second punch, and the members become apoplectic when he's ready for the third and last one in August.  Effectively, we have excellent greens for seven months, pretty good greens for two more, and crappy for three during the peak season.


Other courses in the area with similar grass punch between one and two times, often using a smaller tine that injects water and sand without pulling the cores as the first one.  I am not aware of any which pulls large cores three times annually.


Unlike Mr. Emerson, I am not college educated in agronomy, though I have read the Beard book and have probably spoken to more than 100 superintendents in my life on numerous subjects (today I had a nice chat with our irrigation specialist who was on the site in 2001 before the course was grassed and installed part of the irrigation system; talk about a hard job keeping something that old with nearly 1900 heads).


I can't count the number of times I've explained to members why our superintendent prefers to be so aggressive with the greens.  Most seem to be satisfied with the explanations, which brings to mind something that our guy does NOT do well- communicating regularly with the members.  While the proof should be in the pudding and it does take time away from running the operation, but perhaps informing/educating the paying customer is a good idea?  Respect goes both ways.
     


 

[David_Tepper]

"While the proof should be in the pudding and it does take time away from running the operation, but perhaps informing/educating the paying customer is a good idea?" 


Lou -

You raise a good point. So many of these question/concerns could be nipped in the bud if the superintendent sent out a 3-paragraph email twice a month telling the members what maintenance procedures were planned for the coming weeks and why they were being done.


It also would not hurt to have a "happy hour with the super" a couple times a year where the members could ask questions of the super.


DT

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