Will DeChambeau's win change architecture?

[Forrest Richardson]

The issue (with US Open caliper golf) of simply letting the rough grow in narrower past 300 yards is that the longer the drive, the shorter the iron required. And, the stronger the contestant, the higher loft of the iron required to get home. This, therefore, does not work out well, even though it sounds quite "easy" to accomplish.

I am reminded of William Flynn's remarkable quote — and the order he so perfectly described the ideal hallmarks of the demand of a golf course:

"Accuracy, carry and length..."

[Carl Rogers]

The issue (with US Open caliper golf) of simply letting the rough grow in narrower past 300 yards is that the longer the drive, the shorter the iron required. And, the stronger the contestant, the higher loft of the iron required to get home. This, therefore, does not work out well, even though it sounds quite "easy" to accomplish.

I am reminded of William Flynn's remarkable quote — and the order he so perfectly described the ideal hallmarks of the demand of a golf course:

"Accuracy, carry and length..."

I am not sure how to go about this in relation to the game at it's highest levels.
Fast and firm seems to work only if the weather cooperates ..... no rain.  And with much smaller greens.
25 yard fairway width with water hazards left and right ..... seems boring and extreme.

[Kalen Braley]

4 pages of the usual post major yada yada yada.  More hazards, deeper bunkers, deeper rough, new way back tee boxes, tucked pins,  etc, etc.

And the solution still remains the same:  Tournament ball

[Jeff Schley]

4 pages of the usual post major yada yada yada.  More hazards, deeper bunkers, deeper rough, new way back tee boxes, tucked pins,  etc, etc.

And the solution still remains the same:  Tournament ball

Kalen the USGA is studying the problem. Patience buddy.
Should have a preliminary report circa 2030.  By that time you could call it a history book.

[Jim Hoak]

I'd love it, but why does anyone think the USGA can do anything to force a tournament ball for the Pro Tours?  The Tours have stated that they think the longball is an attractive part of their product, and they will keep it no matter what the USGA does.  Unless they want to change it, we are stuck with what we have.
The other solution is to stop worrying about the pro game.  Let them do what they will--but leave the rest of us 99.9% alone!

[Mark_Fine]

Check out the thread about trees that I started after The Heritage.  Maybe trees are the answer 😉

[Ira Fishman]

I'd love it, but why does anyone think the USGA can do anything to force a tournament ball for the Pro Tours?  The Tours have stated that they think the longball is an attractive part of their product, and they will keep it no matter what the USGA does.  Unless they want to change it, we are stuck with what we have.
The other solution is to stop worrying about the pro game.  Let them do what they will--but leave the rest of us 99.9% alone!

Spot on.

[Rob Marshall]

I'd love it, but why does anyone think the USGA can do anything to force a tournament ball for the Pro Tours?  The Tours have stated that they think the longball is an attractive part of their product, and they will keep it no matter what the USGA does.  Unless they want to change it, we are stuck with what we have.
The other solution is to stop worrying about the pro game.  Let them do what they will--but leave the rest of us 99.9% alone!

I don't get it. Doesn't anyone want to see shot making? I know on TV you don't really get to enjoy it but isn't that what makes the game great. There is no creativity in bombing it. I still remember seeing DLIII hit a low punch slice out of trouble on a par 5 at the BC Open. Next time I took a lesson from Craig Harmon I asked him to show me how to hit that shot. All he said was "remember your not Davis Love"....

[David Ober]

I'd love it, but why does anyone think the USGA can do anything to force a tournament ball for the Pro Tours?  The Tours have stated that they think the longball is an attractive part of their product, and they will keep it no matter what the USGA does.  Unless they want to change it, we are stuck with what we have.
The other solution is to stop worrying about the pro game.  Let them do what they will--but leave the rest of us 99.9% alone!

I don't get it. Doesn't anyone want to see shot making? I know on TV you don't really get to enjoy it but isn't that what makes the game great. There is no creativity in bombing it. I still remember seeing DLIII hit a low punch slice out of trouble on a par 5 at the BC Open. Next time I took a lesson from Craig Harmon I asked him to show me how to hit that shot. All he said was "remember your not Davis Love"....

You want to see shotmaking? Watch Zach Johnson. Or Furyk. Or Tiger (still). Not sure who the shotmakers of tomorrow will be, but they're out there.

[Mark Kiely]

Doesn't anyone want to see shot making?

You don't consider hitting a 5.5-degree loft driver 365 yards over super-tall trees down the left side of 16 shot making? Maybe we just need to update the definition.

[Rob Marshall]

Doesn't anyone want to see shot making?

You don't consider hitting a 5.5-degree loft driver 365 yards over super-tall trees down the left side of 16 shot making? Maybe we just need to update the definition.

Know I don’t. Swing as hard as you can and chase it isn’t shot making. Swing a wedge as hard as you can to hack it out of the rough isn’t shotmaking imo. Can he win at Harbour Town doing that?

[jeffwarne]

Doesn't anyone want to see shot making?

You don't consider hitting a 5.5-degree loft driver 365 yards over super-tall trees down the left side of 16 shot making? Maybe we just need to update the definition.

Know I don’t. Swing as hard as you can and chase it isn’t shot making. Swing a wedge as hard as you can to hack it out of the rough isn’t shotmaking imo. Can he win at Harbour Town doing that?

I actually believe he can.
Davis Love did OK there

[David Ober]

Doesn't anyone want to see shot making?

You don't consider hitting a 5.5-degree loft driver 365 yards over super-tall trees down the left side of 16 shot making? Maybe we just need to update the definition.

Know I don’t. Swing as hard as you can and chase it isn’t shot making. Swing a wedge as hard as you can to hack it out of the rough isn’t shotmaking imo. Can he win at Harbour Town doing that?

Absolutely he can win at Harbour Town. The guy won the U.S. Amateur and is one of the very best players in the world. He can win anywhere.


And if you didn't watch him flighting his irons based upon where the pins were and what the wind was doing and what his landing area was like ... well ... you weren't paying much attention. I watched him hit "full nuke" 9-irons, and I watched him flight them lower, and I watched him hold them off to right pins, etc. Bryson knows how to hit all the shots, and he does so more often than people realize because all they see are the 300 to 320 carry drives.

[jeffwarne]

Doesn't anyone want to see shot making?

You don't consider hitting a 5.5-degree loft driver 365 yards over super-tall trees down the left side of 16 shot making? Maybe we just need to update the definition.

Know I don’t. Swing as hard as you can and chase it isn’t shot making. Swing a wedge as hard as you can to hack it out of the rough isn’t shotmaking imo. Can he win at Harbour Town doing that?

Absolutely he can win at Harbour Town. The guy won the U.S. Amateur and is one of the very best players in the world. He can win anywhere.


And if you didn't watch him flighting his irons based upon where the pins were and what the wind was doing and what his landing area was like ... well ... you weren't paying much attention. I watched him hit "full nuke" 9-irons, and I watched him flight them lower, and I watched him hold them off to right pins, etc. Bryson knows how to hit all the shots, and he does so more often than people realize because all they see are the 300 to 320 carry drives.

+1 he hit lots of "shots" this weekend.
And he needs such shots because he has a lot of partials where working it, sawing it off or reducing spin allow him to get closer than a full shot ever would.

[Rob Marshall]

Doesn't anyone want to see shot making?

You don't consider hitting a 5.5-degree loft driver 365 yards over super-tall trees down the left side of 16 shot making? Maybe we just need to update the definition.

Know I don’t. Swing as hard as you can and chase it isn’t shot making. Swing a wedge as hard as you can to hack it out of the rough isn’t shotmaking imo. Can he win at Harbour Town doing that?

I actually believe he can.
Davis Love did OK there

Davis Love was and always has been a shot maker. He loves Harbour Town because he likes to hit shots. Davis was never imo someone who just tried to hit as far as he could. Neither did Tiger.

[Rob Marshall]

Doesn't anyone want to see shot making?

You don't consider hitting a 5.5-degree loft driver 365 yards over super-tall trees down the left side of 16 shot making? Maybe we just need to update the definition.

Know I don’t. Swing as hard as you can and chase it isn’t shot making. Swing a wedge as hard as you can to hack it out of the rough isn’t shotmaking imo. Can he win at Harbour Town doing that?

Absolutely he can win at Harbour Town. The guy won the U.S. Amateur and is one of the very best players in the world. He can win anywhere.


And if you didn't watch him flighting his irons based upon where the pins were and what the wind was doing and what his landing area was like ... well ... you weren't paying much attention. I watched him hit "full nuke" 9-irons, and I watched him flight them lower, and I watched him hold them off to right pins, etc. Bryson knows how to hit all the shots, and he does so more often than people realize because all they see are the 300 to 320 carry drives.

He won the Am with a completely different game. He would tell you that.

[Rob Marshall]

Doesn't anyone want to see shot making?

You don't consider hitting a 5.5-degree loft driver 365 yards over super-tall trees down the left side of 16 shot making? Maybe we just need to update the definition.

Know I don’t. Swing as hard as you can and chase it isn’t shot making. Swing a wedge as hard as you can to hack it out of the rough isn’t shotmaking imo. Can he win at Harbour Town doing that?

Absolutely he can win at Harbour Town. The guy won the U.S. Amateur and is one of the very best players in the world. He can win anywhere.


And if you didn't watch him flighting his irons based upon where the pins were and what the wind was doing and what his landing area was like ... well ... you weren't paying much attention. I watched him hit "full nuke" 9-irons, and I watched him flight them lower, and I watched him hold them off to right pins, etc. Bryson knows how to hit all the shots, and he does so more often than people realize because all they see are the 300 to 320 carry drives.

+1 he hit lots of "shots" this weekend.
And he needs such shots because he has a lot of partials where working it, sawing it off or reducing spin allow him to get closer than a full shot ever would.

You know more about it than me Jeff, if he was doing that from the rough then I‘m not going to disagree.

[Tim Martin]

Doesn't anyone want to see shot making?

You don't consider hitting a 5.5-degree loft driver 365 yards over super-tall trees down the left side of 16 shot making? Maybe we just need to update the definition.

Know I don’t. Swing as hard as you can and chase it isn’t shot making. Swing a wedge as hard as you can to hack it out of the rough isn’t shotmaking imo. Can he win at Harbour Town doing that?

Absolutely he can win at Harbour Town. The guy won the U.S. Amateur and is one of the very best players in the world. He can win anywhere.


And if you didn't watch him flighting his irons based upon where the pins were and what the wind was doing and what his landing area was like ... well ... you weren't paying much attention. I watched him hit "full nuke" 9-irons, and I watched him flight them lower, and I watched him hold them off to right pins, etc. Bryson knows how to hit all the shots, and he does so more often than people realize because all they see are the 300 to 320 carry drives.

He won the Am with a completely different game. He would tell you that.

Rob-I think that speaks to his talent level.

[Rob Marshall]

I don’t disagree with that. What he’s done is amazing. How many guys lost there swing chasing length....

[Ira Fishman]

Our Recency Bias grows ever more pronunced with the 30 seconds news cycle. They showed Tiger's 7 iron out of the rough at PB Number 6 20 years ago several times this weekend. I remember the commentary at the time about our notions of golf being obsolete.  BD deserved to win because he had the best overall game for the week and because he put in the work to do so. But I doubt that in 20 years we will see replays of his shots at WFW (ok, I may not for age related reasons) because 1 does not equal 15 or 18 or even 6. I have no doubt that BD will win some more, but not at those levels.
WFW is one hundred years old. Oakmont is 113 years old. Golf will be fine


Ira

[David Ober]

Doesn't anyone want to see shot making?

You don't consider hitting a 5.5-degree loft driver 365 yards over super-tall trees down the left side of 16 shot making? Maybe we just need to update the definition.

Know I don’t. Swing as hard as you can and chase it isn’t shot making. Swing a wedge as hard as you can to hack it out of the rough isn’t shotmaking imo. Can he win at Harbour Town doing that?

Absolutely he can win at Harbour Town. The guy won the U.S. Amateur and is one of the very best players in the world. He can win anywhere.


And if you didn't watch him flighting his irons based upon where the pins were and what the wind was doing and what his landing area was like ... well ... you weren't paying much attention. I watched him hit "full nuke" 9-irons, and I watched him flight them lower, and I watched him hold them off to right pins, etc. Bryson knows how to hit all the shots, and he does so more often than people realize because all they see are the 300 to 320 carry drives.

+1 he hit lots of "shots" this weekend.
And he needs such shots because he has a lot of partials where working it, sawing it off or reducing spin allow him to get closer than a full shot ever would.

You know more about it than me Jeff, if he was doing that from the rough then I‘m not going to disagree.

Of course he's not not shaping/flighting shots (much) from the (especially) deep rough. But when he was in the fairway (~45%(?) of the time), he certainly was.

[Bruce Katona]

Tournament ball - no. 


I have to believe with all of the highly specialized technology and computer design available in 2020 we can have one ball that both the average 15 handicapper and the touring professional can play AND REDUCE BALL FLIGHT FOR THE GUYS WITH 110 MPH CLUBHEAD  SPEAD AND MAINTAIN THE FEEL OF THE PRO V 1.


Let the designers at Titleist at it for 6-9 months and they'll solve the design challenge; especially if the ball makers can continue to tout "IT'S THE EXACT SAME BALL TIGER OR BDC PLAYS."

[Craig Sweet]

I thought this was the most boring US Open I have ever seen.  I thought it did little to show the architectural "genius" of WF...if it exists at all...Yeah the greens had some slope to them, but every time I looked somebody was chunking the ball from the rough with a wedge. 


Kalen is right...tournament ball is needed.

[John Crowley]

I'd love it, but why does anyone think the USGA can do anything to force a tournament ball for the Pro Tours?  The Tours have stated that they think the longball is an attractive part of their product, and they will keep it no matter what the USGA does.  Unless they want to change it, we are stuck with what we have.
The other solution is to stop worrying about the pro game.  Let them do what they will--but leave the rest of us 99.9% alone!

Absolutely!
Why worry about the Pro Tour!
Worry about how you personally will get it in the hole in fewer strokes.

[David_Madison]

I believe that Pinehurst #2 may very well neuter much of the advantage that DeChambeau and other bombers have over straighter but shorter players. At WFW DeChambeau was able with study to determine within a reasonably tight results band how the rough would impact his shots and then plot his way around the course, knowing where to leave his approach greens misses in order to most easily be able to scramble for his pars. That study of the rough was possible because it was reasonably similar hole by hole and shot by shot, and the greens and surrounds were receptive to approaches that got up into the air.


The "rough" on #2 is the opposite - -clumps of wire grass, rutted sandy lies, pine cones and other debris, and a whole lot of almost unplayable plant material make it frequently virtually impossible to have any semblance of control or predictability on the shot. The problem might even be magnified if a super-bomber drives it too close to the green and doesn't leave a full shot, as many lies require a lot of clubbed speed just to get the club through to launch the ball. And then combine that with the style of crowned, exceedingly firm greens and surrounds and the dynamic totally tilts. I can't help but believe that a Webb Simpson from 160 yards in the fairway will beat DeChambeau from 100 but in the "rough" far more often than not.