[Kyle Harris]

Culture Club, Dress Codes and Music... distract from the golf experience

Is this the greatest use of a non-serial/Oxford comma on this website ever!?

[MKrohn]

I’ve come around on music out on the golf course provided that it’s played at reasonable volume levels. Is it really a culture killer?

Its a culture flag rather than a killer, play music, wear hats in the clubhouse, do whatever you want on the theory that the rights of the individual should always usurp those of the rest..........or not in my world.

Which of your personal rights are infringed upon by my wearing a hat in the clubhouse?

None, because I'm really not aware I have any. Enough of the membership don't abide it so it isn't done.

[Ira Fishman]

Despite my snarky initial comment, Dunlop White makes a wonderful point about honoring history and Thomas Dai makes a critical point about treating staff well. One of the aspects that I like most about Hope Valley (our away from home club) is that it combines the two. Members created a Turfgrass Scholarship at NC State in the name of the former longtime Superintendent. The Women’s Championship is named after the daughter of the first and longtime pro; she has worked in the golf shop for over 60 years. Just this year, it renamed the tees and hybrid layouts from colors to the name of the architect (Ross), most famous victor (Nelson), most famous golfing member (Souchak), former longtime Superintendent (Mashburn), and the original head pro (Crichton) whose daughter I mentioned and whose son also served as head pro. To Dunlop’s point, this is more than an on paper change. The tee markers were redone to use the first letter of the person honored. If the change also encourages people to play the appropriate tees, all the better.


Ira

[Brock Lynch]

I enjoy any club culture from beer swilling porta cabin no history to spending an hour reading the hallways. What matters most is the golf course. All the history and tradition mean very little if I don't want to play the course.

Ciao

+1


Wooden tributes and bald, hatless men won't make up for a golf course that few wish to play.

[Ted Sturges]

I prefer to attribute a club's culture to the folks that spend the most time there. In my experience, there are still way too many memberships who take themselves (and their increasingly archaic rules) far too seriously.



 

But JS, isn't this part of the problem?  Every club in America has members who are there EVERY day (insert Judge Smales' famous quote: "Don't you have homes?").  Do they deserve to dictate the club's culture just because they have more time to enjoy the club than everybody else?  A friend of mine describes this situation as "hey...we all bought a first class ticket on this vessel...you don't have the right to make me ride in coach."  Do you really think that minority group of people at every club in America should be given the right to take the culture down to where they want it (more often than not finding the lowest common denominator)?


TS

[Kalen Braley]

Put me down in the camp of those who would much rather have a quality course and colorful members to interact with over stodgy knick-knacks and decorations....

[Bernie Bell]

If we're quoting Caddyshack, then I'd say one person's "true golf culture" is another person's "crummy snobatorium."  Everyone can find their own comfort level and march to the beat of their own drum in terms of a club's culture, but let's not confuse cabinetry, woodwork, clocks, valet parking, tee markers and -- especially -- exclusivity with the game of golf.   

[Jeff Spittel]

I prefer to attribute a club's culture to the folks that spend the most time there. In my experience, there are still way too many memberships who take themselves (and their increasingly archaic rules) far too seriously.



 

But JS, isn't this part of the problem?  Every club in America has members who are there EVERY day (insert Judge Smales' famous quote: "Don't you have homes?").  Do they deserve to dictate the club's culture just because they have more time to enjoy the club than everybody else?  A friend of mine describes this situation as "hey...we all bought a first class ticket on this vessel...you don't have the right to make me ride in coach."  Do you really think that minority group of people at every club in America should be given the right to take the culture down to where they want it (more often than not finding the lowest common denominator)?


TS

I'm not sure that's necessarily a problem at all. The culture at the club to which I belong in Houston is shaped in large part by the "regulars" like me, but those are the same folks who have volunteered to serve on committees and the board. Perhaps my opinion is shaped by BraeBurn's reputation around town as the club with the unpretentious, welcoming and occasionally rowdy membership that still caters to families. It's a pretty successful formula that I wish were replicated more frequently at some bigger name clubs. 


To be clear, I'm not suggesting that behaving like a drunken jackass should be the common denominator. But as long as you are treating the staff graciously and exercising common sense, you shouldn't have to walk around on eggshells about wearing flip flops.   

[size=78%]  [/size]

[Tim Gavrich]

To what extent is a willingness to improve the general golf pipeline an indicator of a particular club's culture? Are there certain private club memberships that feel (and then act on) a sense of duty to contribute to the improvement of more affordable and accessible forms of golf in their community? Presumably there are a lot of influential members of private clubs who grew up in the game's more humble places and want to enhance that particular avenue into golf, not just for its intrinsic value but in the assumption that more avid golfers means more potential members down the road.


Are there certain cities where the private clubs have closer relationships with the munis than others? Here in Vero Beach, at least at the club pro level, there's a significant amount of camaraderie between the County-owned facility and the many very well-off private clubs. I think that's admirable, and probably uncommon.

[Jason Topp]

Isn't the point here that we all like a "great golf culture"?
It's just that tehre should and can be many definitions of that.

Reading the repies, it would seem many would suggest a club culture should be one that conforms to their views...(example-whether or not music is acceptable, enjoyable or even tolerated)


Wouldn't it be incredibly boring if EVERY golf COURSE was uniform, like hard court tennis, rather than enjoying a diversity of landscape,distances,width, external and internal views, grass types and condtions, and of course architecture.


Why can't club cultures be equally diverse?

I agree with this.  I tend to dislike most of the traditional rules but I love the atmosphere of a great club and have found it at a muni with T-shirts and jeans as standard attire and I have found it at clubs with some of the most restrictive rules.   


   I find the sock rules at Australian clubs mystifying but the welcome from the members beyond compare.   Not sure why I need to wear a tux to one member guest dinner but am glad I did for the belly laughs I experienced. One club culture consisted of a bunch of rules that everyone immediately tried to violate.  Even that was fun in a unique way.   


I think building a great culture is critical at any club.   A great culture can be built using a wide variety of strategies.  Treatment of staff is usually a terrific bellwether indicating whether the culture works.   

[Lou_Duran]

A member of a Texas club, one of the 10+ he calls home, noted how glad he was to be back after being stuck for six months in his "basement" in LI.  He rattled off all the places he played during this time which only made me envious that I was not stuck there with him.  He stated that these clubs had little life, were too quiet and stuffy, great courses lacking atmosphere.


What made his Texas club the most fun in his collection is that it started with relatively few rules and though it is now near full, it is still operated with nearly the same few- great deal of freedom and flexibility with no need for airs.  The gentleman had enjoyed a few drinks by the time he made his remarks to some 50 members and a handful of guests after a day event, but one could feel the Esprit de corps permeating the room.  All about golf, competition (handicap range of +6 to 18), and camaraderie.  Great fun.

[Terry Lavin]

A member of a Texas club, one of the 10+ he calls home, noted how glad he was to be back after being stuck for six months in his "basement" in LI.  He rattled off all the places he played during this time which only made me envious that I was not stuck there with him.  He stated that these clubs had little life, were too quiet and stuffy, great courses lacking atmosphere.


What made his Texas club the most fun in his collection is that it started with relatively few rules and though it is now near full, it is still operated with nearly the same few- great deal of freedom and flexibility with no need for airs.  The gentleman had enjoyed a few drinks by the time he made his remarks to some 50 members and a handful of guests after a day event, but one could feel the Esprit de corps permeating the room.  All about golf, competition (handicap range of +6 to 18), and camaraderie.  Great fun.

Sounds like my kind of club member. Knowing what matters...matters!

[Tim Martin]

A culture that eschews slow play is one worth fighting for.

[Jeff Schley]

A member of a Texas club, one of the 10+ he calls home, noted how glad he was to be back after being stuck for six months in his "basement" in LI.  He rattled off all the places he played during this time which only made me envious that I was not stuck there with him.  He stated that these clubs had little life, were too quiet and stuffy, great courses lacking atmosphere.


What made his Texas club the most fun in his collection is that it started with relatively few rules and though it is now near full, it is still operated with nearly the same few- great deal of freedom and flexibility with no need for airs.  The gentleman had enjoyed a few drinks by the time he made his remarks to some 50 members and a handful of guests after a day event, but one could feel the Esprit de corps permeating the room.  All about golf, competition (handicap range of +6 to 18), and camaraderie.  Great fun.

Sounds like my kind of club member. Knowing what matters...matters!

Yep.. the main thing, is to keep the main thing the main thing. Golf clubs are so pure in their mission as it is in their name, it is the country clubs that deviate from the golf course that get off target.

[Sean_A]

To what extent is a willingness to improve the general golf pipeline an indicator of a particular club's culture? Are there certain private club memberships that feel (and then act on) a sense of duty to contribute to the improvement of more affordable and accessible forms of golf in their community? Presumably there are a lot of influential members of private clubs who grew up in the game's more humble places and want to enhance that particular avenue into golf, not just for its intrinsic value but in the assumption that more avid golfers means more potential members down the road.

Are there certain cities where the private clubs have closer relationships with the munis than others? Here in Vero Beach, at least at the club pro level, there's a significant amount of camaraderie between the County-owned facility and the many very well-off private clubs. I think that's admirable, and probably uncommon.

Does this muni have a club section?

Ciao

[Dunlop_White]

Are there certain cities where the private clubs have closer relationships with the munis than others? Here in Vero Beach, at least at the club pro level, there's a significant amount of camaraderie between the County-owned facility and the many very well-off private clubs. I think that's admirable, and probably uncommon.

Tim -- I immediately thought of Charlotte, which started including their private venues (Quail, Myers Park, Charlotte CC, Carmel) in the rotation for their City Am.... and what a surprise to see that you have covered this already. See link below.

http://https://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/cool-golf-things-charlotte-city-amateur]

Same model could work in Winston-Salem, as the Reynolds family were great companions to golf having started one of the first front lawn courses in the South and having started two private courses (Forsyth and Old Town) and two public courses in Reynolds Park and Tanglewood -- and our City Am is one of oldest around. Again, tradition and heritage could sell this. (But the private sector has recently helped grow their link with the local munis by helping finance and build the John Faidley Learning Center at Winston Lakes for the First Tee.

So this too should be an important part of your golf culture: giving back to the game.

[Dunlop_White]

Music appears to be a hot topic everywhere. Music may add or compromise your golf culture -- depending on who you ask. The 10x club champ and his son of Generation X are going to have a different take on it.


We provided the following communication to members.....and this has worked nicely.


"In respect for your fellow Member and the Traditions of the game, please refrain from playing loud music on the golf course. Sound often carries farther than we realize. If you can hear music 15 paces away, then the music is too loud and may disrupt others. Please make every effort to follow this parameter, so we will not have to police or restrict this in the future."

[Bernie Bell]

[deleted]

[Tommy Williamsen]

At Ballyhack one of the cultures I love is the ability to go out to an empty hole. My wife played there last week and the first tee was busy. We checked the course and found a foursome on the fifth tee. We tee off on seven and had clear sailing the rest of the way. When we made the turn one was open. I found the same culture at the other golf clubs I belonged to. One club had caddies and the caddie master would drive us out to an open hole. It was not the same at the country clubs where I had a membership. They were not so accommodating.

[Tim Martin]

[deleted]

Bernie-I read your reply # 67 before you deleted it. I think it’s great when juniors are offered a way in that is both affordable and welcoming. What caught my eye is that you specifically mentioned “strong” junior players. How is that determined as it seems that being an avid player doesn’t necessarily mean a strong player?  Thanks.

[Dunlop_White]

I agree that an alluring golf culture depends in large part on the golf course (Sean Arble) — and like it or not — its people.


But how do you get there? How are you going to get a golf course worthy enough to attract and retain promising new members?


One way of doing it is by investing in your tradition and history (See post #38). It summons a sense of pride and appreciation among the membership and can serve as the inspiration and catalyst for a thoughtful golf course restoration, which incidentally is one of the most powerful marketing tools a club has today for attracting and retaining members. 


In the March 2008 edition of Golfweek Magazine, Brad Klein wrote about "a small club" with "a modest clubhouse” creating adornments of "heady company” in honor of their architect. At that time, few members had much admiration or respect for their architectural heritage, and fewer knew much of anything about Perry Maxwell or his masterworks.


Klein says….."At some courses, it’s easy to see how folks take their architecture seriously. Old Town Club set aside a room in their modest clubhouse for course designer Perry Maxwell (1879-1952). The room honors the architect with oil paintings depicting other classic Maxwell gems, including his co-designs (Crystal Down Country Club and Prairie Dunes Country Club) and his renovations (Pine Valley and Augusta National). Plans are afoot to get a painting of Maxwell’s premier solo design, Southern Hills Country Club. That might seem like heady company for a small club such as Old Town, but the effort at commemorating Maxwell helped generate political support for a determined restoration. The club was blessed with a coterie of determined architecture enthusiasts who were not hampered by a committee structure. They hammered away for more than a decade to bring back the design genius of their classic layout."


So, while some may want to discount time-honored “trinkets," "knick-knacks," “cabinetry," "woodwork" and historical “decor" as superfluous or meaningless, it has proven to be the seedlings and underpinnings of at least one pretty good golf culture.

[Dunlop_White]

[deleted]

Bernie-I read your reply # 67 before you deleted it. I think it’s great when juniors are offered a way in that is both affordable and welcoming. What caught my eye is that you specifically mentioned “strong” junior players. How is that determined as it seems that being an avid player doesn’t necessarily mean a strong player?  Thanks.

Bernie, Congrats on everything you are doing for juniors. We have junior guest fees set at $5, so I hope this too helps in some small way promote and enhance junior golf in our area.

[Bernie Bell]

Tim, I don't really know.  I don't think there's a playing test or anything.  The cost is not high but I suspect it is high enough that it only makes sense if the kid is avid. 

[Tim Martin]

Tim, I don't really know.  I don't think there's a playing test or anything.  The cost is not high but I suspect it is high enough that it only makes sense if the kid is avid.

Thanks Bernie

[Tim Gavrich]

Are there certain cities where the private clubs have closer relationships with the munis than others? Here in Vero Beach, at least at the club pro level, there's a significant amount of camaraderie between the County-owned facility and the many very well-off private clubs. I think that's admirable, and probably uncommon.

Tim -- I immediately thought of Charlotte, which started including their private venues (Quail, Myers Park, Charlotte CC, Carmel) in the rotation for their City Am.... and what a surprise to see that you have covered this already. See link below.

http://https://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/cool-golf-things-charlotte-city-amateur]

Same model could work in Winston-Salem, as the Reynolds family were great companions to golf having started one of the first front lawn courses in the South and having started two private courses (Forsyth and Old Town) and two public courses in Reynolds Park and Tanglewood -- and our City Am is one of oldest around. Again, tradition and heritage could sell this. (But the private sector has recently helped grow their link with the local munis by helping finance and build the John Faidley Learning Center at Winston Lakes for the First Tee.

So this too should be an important part of your golf culture: giving back to the game.

Dunlop--


You caught the somewhat leading nature of my question!   


The rotation of the Charlotte City Am through the city's top private clubs is a great initiative with what I perceive as extremely significant upside (long-term prestige and annual buzz about the top local tournament, plus the feeling of the club's involvement with the greater community) for extremely modest investment (the membership making the course available for roughly half of one day, once every few years). I'm glad to hear Winston-Salem's own city tournament is well-done as well; I've researched a few others and it seems the Asheboro, NC annual event is another very successful one. I am glad to see that.

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