[Joe Hellrung]

I did some research and haven't been able to find a prior discussion on this topic directly, so here we go:


What are some good examples of architects and supers finding the right balance between creating forced carries over waste areas (which make a course easier to maintain and save on water(?)), and keeping the course accessible for all levels of golfer?  How do the architects and supers consider this issue when designing/maintaining a course?  What is the max length of a forced carry for a hole to still be accessible, if any?  If Ross believed that every hole should be playable with a putter, then are forced carries ever acceptable? 


Interested in hearing everyone's thoughts. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Did you see Rory top one in the water on 18 at East Lake? Should they fill it in?

[Joe Hellrung]

Did you see Rory top one in the water on 18 at East Lake? Should they fill it in?

 


Funny you chose that example John, that is a hole where one could in fact play around the water if they only had a putter in the bag.   

[Matt_Cohn]

I would say to look at courses in Arizona for answers. I would also note my thread from a couple weeks ago where TD among others basically indicated that any carry that's not from a tee is undesirable.

[Carl Rogers]

Hole 18 at Riverfront requires a considerable forced carry over a wetland.

[Tom_Doak]

Hole 18 at Riverfront requires a considerable forced carry over a wetland.

My first routing for the course had the clubhouse about 200 yards further west [?], about where the ninth green is today.  The 18th would have had its tee shot over that wetland and then a mid-length approach.  But the land planner liked the clubhouse better where it is, and nobody wanted to end on a par-3, so the carry had to be placed on the second shot instead.  [I made the hole a par five so that you could lay up on your second and still reach the green in regulation.]


Even so, the fact that you are highlighting that points out that it is less than ideal.


I don't mind a forced carry over sand for a second shot every once in a while -- assuming the sand is playable -- but I can still hear Mrs. Dye telling me not to do it if I don't have to.


P.S.  There are other ways to save water and save on maintenance costs besides building waste areas!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Joe,


Every site is different.  That said, my general rules of thumb....Forced carries are better (more tolerable?) if:


Off the tee than on the approach


On par 3's tee shot over a par 4 and 5 holes tee shot

On a shorter approach than a longer approach (even on par 3 holes, and I have arranged routings for the par 3's to be the holes that carry shots appear on.

On optional tee shots vs. required tee shots (i.e., alternate, short cut fw)

On an approach shot to a par 5 over an approach shot to a par 4 (i.e., allowing layup to about 100 yards)


Sandy waste over rough, if rough over natives, if natives over water.


Under 200 yards back tees, graduating down to no more than 2/3 of expected drive distance from other tees.
If a wetlands with cat tails, etc., with a tee built up high enough to carry those vs. a tee at grade where they may interfere.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:


The one I would add to your list is that it's better to have a forced carry off a tee, if you can get away with putting the most forward tee on the other side so there's no forced carry.  That's why I favor tackling the carries on longer holes, instead of par-3's as you suggested.

[Ira Fishman]

Where does heather fit in? Forced carry or version of long rough?


As to the OP, as much as I love Ross, his courses that I have played have at least one hole where a putter is not an option.


Ira

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff:


The one I would add to your list is that it's better to have a forced carry off a tee, if you can get away with putting the most forward tee on the other side so there's no forced carry.  That's why I favor tackling the carries on longer holes, instead of par-3's as you suggested.

I agree.  I just started typing the first things I was thinking of.  At Firekeeper and La Costa, we put the two forward tees with full turf in front of them, and graduated the middle and back tee carries. 


Have told the story before, but at Colbert Hills, we had set the standard native area carry to 200 yards from the back tees, at least until one day when a winter like wind blew, and Colbert himself couldn't carry the native, so we moved it back to 185 or so on all holes, just in case wind blew a different direction.

[Kyle Cruickshank]

Has to be a fine balance.  Not sure about in the States but in the UK, promoting eco rough has been quite prevelent and many Course Managers might see it as an excuse to grow the grass up and have less to cut/maintain.  But you have to factor in the type of membership, ability, pace of play etc.  Personally I would say having Eco Rough is fine, but it has to be managed by annual cutting and thinning so that it presents a challenge but you're able to find balls in it.  Something that Castle Stuart and many other links courses have done well.

[Thomas Dai]

Has to be a fine balance.  Not sure about in the States but in the UK, promoting eco rough has been quite prevelent and many Course Managers might see it as an excuse to grow the grass up and have less to cut/maintain.  But you have to factor in the type of membership, ability, pace of play etc.  Personally I would say having Eco Rough is fine, but it has to be managed by annual cutting and thinning so that it presents a challenge but you're able to find balls in it.  Something that Castle Stuart and many other links courses have done well.

If a course is going to have eco areas they’d better be managed properly. Otherwise, if such areas are left unattended or neglected all sorts of scrub and tress will grow and pretty much before the Club realises it it’s chainsaws and machines time and all the time and money and club politics hassle that comes with such.
Atb

[Kyle Cruickshank]

Thomas, in my experience, eco rough that surrounds the holes has been cut and maintained annually.  I know some courses may use a Graminicide to wipe out the coarser grasses and leave the fescues.  Gorse and Sea Buckthorn are very invasive and rapidly growing species that as you say need to be maintained if they are left to grow.  Ususally (not exclusively) these areas are out of  play and not in play as a forced carrie as Joe was referring to.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I am guessing eco turf is what we in the US would call native or long grass areas that don't require water?


One thing to consider is just how big a few feet of circumference adds to the target area, and where more grass equals less golf lost balls.


Take a round, 6,000 SF green, which has about a 44 foot diameter/88 foot circle.  Add 3 feet to that, and it increases green size to 6940 SF, 15% bump.  If native areas are just 10 feet outside that, total area is a quarter acre.  Add 60 foot outside the green edge (about the radius of sprinklers on the outer perimeter of the green, and the turfed target area goes up to three quarters of an acre, enough to hold in most shots of even D players.


Those perimeter heads should be part circles, throwing in, to avoid the eco grasses getting too much water (and becoming unintentionally thick)

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