Design rankings or beauty contests?

[Carl Rogers]

If Riverfront had more views of the Nansemond River, more wetland frontage, shorter green to tee walks, crossed fewer streets & kept the same holes, the course would move up a couple of notches?


See "Getting to Eighteen".

[Ira Fishman]

I find it funny that North Berwick has gained so much in the rankings and everyone pretends that all that frontage on the Firth has little to do with it, but the same water views are certainly the main factor for all the modern courses.


I'm not saying it doesn't have a bunch of great holes - I've been a fan of it for a long time - but aside from maybe Turnberry and Dornoch it has the most dramatic setting of any of the links in Scotland.

Of the courses I have played in Scotland, NB actually is not at the top of the list of dramatic settings. My experience is more limited than many others, but other than Number 2 and 12, the setting had little influence on my assessment of the course.


Ira

[Mark Mammel]

The 4th at Cruden Bay, a lovely par 3 on the Water of Cruden river, is both a great hole and a lovely setting. But it does not have the beautiful valley of the 8th or the ocean  views of the back 9. I think 16, 17 and 18 at Carnoustie are lovely holes, and great to play, with the Barrie Burn always in view and on your mind.

[Mark Pearce]

Would anyone describe the 4th at Woking as beautiful?

[Tom_Doak]

I find it funny that North Berwick has gained so much in the rankings and everyone pretends that all that frontage on the Firth has little to do with it, but the same water views are certainly the main factor for all the modern courses.

I'm not saying it doesn't have a bunch of great holes - I've been a fan of it for a long time - but aside from maybe Turnberry and Dornoch it has the most dramatic setting of any of the links in Scotland.

One thing about the frontage is that five holes have it as more than background...its in play and is therefore a critical aspect of the design.

Ciao

Sean:


I agree with that, and I would much rather have the water in play vs just as a backdrop where feasible. (Pacific Dunes has two 450-yard holes along the cliff, Bandon Dunes has more greens and tees backing up to the edge.)


But there aren't many courses in the UK that have water views the whole way around and several holes right up on the beach, and that is certainly a part of what appeals to Americans about North Berwick.  But they almost never mention it.  Indeed it took me several visits before I thought about that part of its appeal, but that doesn't mean it hadn't affected me before then.

[Adam Lawrence]

Would anyone describe the 4th at Woking as beautiful?

When the heather is in bloom, certainly.

[Niall C]

I find it funny that North Berwick has gained so much in the rankings and everyone pretends that all that frontage on the Firth has little to do with it, but the same water views are certainly the main factor for all the modern courses.

I'm not saying it doesn't have a bunch of great holes - I've been a fan of it for a long time - but aside from maybe Turnberry and Dornoch it has the most dramatic setting of any of the links in Scotland.

One thing about the frontage is that five holes have it as more than background...its in play and is therefore a critical aspect of the design.

Ciao

Yes, they are in play after a fashion in that you can play off the beach as I have done on several of those holes. But with the exception the 2nd and perhaps the first if for some reason you wanted to take a tight line to the fence, they aren't much in the golfers thoughts. How much more significant would the waterfront be if it was deemed out of bounds ?


Niall

[Sean_A]

I find it funny that North Berwick has gained so much in the rankings and everyone pretends that all that frontage on the Firth has little to do with it, but the same water views are certainly the main factor for all the modern courses.

I'm not saying it doesn't have a bunch of great holes - I've been a fan of it for a long time - but aside from maybe Turnberry and Dornoch it has the most dramatic setting of any of the links in Scotland.

One thing about the frontage is that five holes have it as more than background...its in play and is therefore a critical aspect of the design.

Ciao

Yes, they are in play after a fashion in that you can play off the beach as I have done on several of those holes. But with the exception the 2nd and perhaps the first if for some reason you wanted to take a tight line to the fence, they aren't much in the golfers thoughts. How much more significant would the waterfront be if it was deemed out of bounds ?

Niall

Niall

OOB tends to tip the scale away from temptation. The fact that I may still get a par or even a bogey if a shot goes astray brings temptation into play. Usually, OOB is too big a price to pay and steers well away.

Ciao

[Tim Gavrich]

I reckon that external scenery is often more likely to muddle the fact of greatness of a golf hole than reveal it. The hole that most recently blew my mind, the par-4 16th at The Dye Preserve, has nothing to do with the natural surroundings (the course is basically in flat forest/swamp west of Jupiter, FL) but because of its created golf features it nonetheless achieves strategic excellence to such a degree that there is no question it is a great golf hole.


That's not to say it's not a pleasure to play golf in a beautiful setting, but there is little question that the hole I described is superior to any number of holes that are in full view of mountains or ocean, at least IMO.

[Bernie Bell]

Most of the comments focus on courses that are beautiful but not necessarily great.  What about the converse?  I was intrigued by Mr. Arble's tour of Cleveland GC.  I marked it down as a course I had never heard of, but now want to see (along with Seaton Carew), due to my own idiosyncrasies.  That's probably an odd take; even Darwin said something along the lines of "keep your eyes averted" in his course write-up, as I recall.  But is Cleveland under-appreciated because of its setting, regardless of its design and other qualities?  Are there others that fit the same bill?

[Mark_Fine]

I am not sure what we are trying to accomplish with this thread?  Just because a hole is pretty doesn't mean it is great or even good - I think we all know that.  But a hole that is beautiful to look at as well as full of strategy/interest is most likely going to have an edge over a hole that is just one or the other.  I am not sure how you argue with that unless you just want to debate. 

Most people for example think the 15th hole at Cypress Point is beautiful golf hole and one of the best short par threes on the planet.  If the same hole was surrounded by run down town homes instead of 250 year old Cypress trees and the ocean, would most people feel the same way?  In theory it would play the same way so maybe they should     Furthermore, since the architect likely had no control over the town homes, his or her design shouldn't be penalized for them     Moreover, if the backdrops don't matter you can't fault the architect for building the hole in that location assuming the town homes were there before the golf hole! 

Bottomline, beauty doesn't make a great golf hole but it sure as hell can add to it in a major way.  Very few great golf holes (yes there are a few) are not beautiful to look at.  In most cases, when you take everything into proper consideration, it very often is a beauty contest with the winner being smart and having a lot of personality as well

[Niall C]

I find it funny that North Berwick has gained so much in the rankings and everyone pretends that all that frontage on the Firth has little to do with it, but the same water views are certainly the main factor for all the modern courses.

I'm not saying it doesn't have a bunch of great holes - I've been a fan of it for a long time - but aside from maybe Turnberry and Dornoch it has the most dramatic setting of any of the links in Scotland.

One thing about the frontage is that five holes have it as more than background...its in play and is therefore a critical aspect of the design.

Ciao

Yes, they are in play after a fashion in that you can play off the beach as I have done on several of those holes. But with the exception the 2nd and perhaps the first if for some reason you wanted to take a tight line to the fence, they aren't much in the golfers thoughts. How much more significant would the waterfront be if it was deemed out of bounds ?

Niall

Niall

OOB tends to tip the scale away from temptation. The fact that I may still get a par or even a bogey if a shot goes astray brings temptation into play. Usually, OOB is too big a price to pay and steers well away.

Ciao

Sean


My point is that apart from the first two holes the beach/water isn't in the golfers thoughts so there is not temptation. There isn't even fear. The beach is just another place you can perhaps recover from after a wild shot.


Niall

[Peter Flory]

Maybe an interesting thread topic would be the greatest golf holes with the worst surroundings.

[Sean_A]

I find it funny that North Berwick has gained so much in the rankings and everyone pretends that all that frontage on the Firth has little to do with it, but the same water views are certainly the main factor for all the modern courses.

I'm not saying it doesn't have a bunch of great holes - I've been a fan of it for a long time - but aside from maybe Turnberry and Dornoch it has the most dramatic setting of any of the links in Scotland.

One thing about the frontage is that five holes have it as more than background...its in play and is therefore a critical aspect of the design.

Ciao

Yes, they are in play after a fashion in that you can play off the beach as I have done on several of those holes. But with the exception the 2nd and perhaps the first if for some reason you wanted to take a tight line to the fence, they aren't much in the golfers thoughts. How much more significant would the waterfront be if it was deemed out of bounds ?

Niall

Niall

OOB tends to tip the scale away from temptation. The fact that I may still get a par or even a bogey if a shot goes astray brings temptation into play. Usually, OOB is too big a price to pay and steers well away.

Ciao

Sean

My point is that apart from the first two holes the beach/water isn't in the golfers thoughts so there is not temptation. There isn't even fear. The beach is just another place you can perhaps recover from after a wild shot.

Niall

I have had plenty of fear on 13 when the wind is against and I have a wood in my hands. I recently discovered that it isn't that hard to find problems on 14!


Ciao

[Ira Fishman]

Maybe an interesting thread topic would be the greatest golf holes with the worst surroundings.

Worst? Maybe not. But PH2 Number 3 and Woking Number 4 are not portraits in beautiful surroundings. Add the back nine at Pasatiempo.


Ira

[John Emerson]

I find it funny that North Berwick has gained so much in the rankings and everyone pretends that all that frontage on the Firth has little to do with it, but the same water views are certainly the main factor for all the modern courses.


I'm not saying it doesn't have a bunch of great holes - I've been a fan of it for a long time - but aside from maybe Turnberry and Dornoch it has the most dramatic setting of any of the links in Scotland.

Tom,
Even more dramatic than Cruden Bay? I found that place (CB) to be more visually intimidating and stunning than any place I have ever seen.  Considerably more than NB....IMO of course.  I still cannot get it out of my head some days.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
Even more dramatic than Cruden Bay? I found that place (CB) to be more visually intimidating and stunning than any place I have ever seen.  Considerably more than NB....IMO of course.  I still cannot get it out of my head some days.

I was thinking more in terms of water views. But, point taken, Cruden Bay is another rankings darling in recent years as the bonus points for water views have increased.

[Thomas Dai]

'New' 7th at Royal Dornoch?
'New' 17th at RLGC/Hoylake?

Opening-up of sandy areas on numerous UK links courses?
atb

[Sean_A]

I find it funny that North Berwick has gained so much in the rankings and everyone pretends that all that frontage on the Firth has little to do with it, but the same water views are certainly the main factor for all the modern courses.

I'm not saying it doesn't have a bunch of great holes - I've been a fan of it for a long time - but aside from maybe Turnberry and Dornoch it has the most dramatic setting of any of the links in Scotland.

One thing about the frontage is that five holes have it as more than background...its in play and is therefore a critical aspect of the design.

Ciao

Sean:

I agree with that, and I would much rather have the water in play vs just as a backdrop where feasible. (Pacific Dunes has two 450-yard holes along the cliff, Bandon Dunes has more greens and tees backing up to the edge.)

But there aren't many courses in the UK that have water views the whole way around and several holes right up on the beach, and that is certainly a part of what appeals to Americans about North Berwick.  But they almost never mention it.  Indeed it took me several visits before I thought about that part of its appeal, but that doesn't mean it hadn't affected me before then.

For sure NB is special for its views of the sea and town. I am not one to discount views because I think beauty adds to quality.

On a more mundane scale, I appreciate when cut lines meld into landscapes or local growth. That's all about enhancing the experience and I spose an effort to help the golfer suspend disbelief. Of this attention to detail adds to quality.

Ciao