[Thomas Dai]

How do the links courses, or those that some might not term traditional links but are nevertheless located near adjacent to the sea, built in Scotland over the last couple of decades compare to each other?
Mach Dunes
Kingsbarns
Renaissance.
Balmedie.
Dundonald
Castle Stuart
Dumbarnie
Etc
Just curious.
Thoughts?
Arb

[Tom_Doak]

Only three of those you named [Machrihanish Dunes, Renaissance and Balmedie] look anything like the ground they were built on.  And you could disqualify Renaissance, too, if you count clearing trees against it.


The rest of them are paeans to what money and construction equipment can do.


P.S.  You forgot The Castle Course which falls into the latter category.

[David_Tepper]

You could add Doonbeg for consideration to the list, although it is in Ireland rather than the UK.

[Thomas Dai]

Fair play to mention the Castle although I deliberately didn’t mention it as there are others immediately adjacent that are also near coastal but are essentially higher clifftop courses rather than ones that drop down to nearer sea level at least in places, give or take a few feet, and I kept away from mentioning Irish courses. It’s the Scottish ones I’m keen on hearing comparisons between so I’ve now made the thread title more specific.
How does the playability compare?
Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

I like Mach Dunes the best, essentially because it feels the most natural. Might not be the best course but when I can tell linksland has been either shaped or styled, it’s a bit of a turn-off.


Clearly the greens at Mach Dunes are not “natural” but tee to green, next to nowt was done.

[Jeff Schley]

I think Ardfin would have to be in that discussion. Haven't played it as of yet, but was planning this year until Covid came. Anxious to see it.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think Ardfin would have to be in that discussion. Haven't played it as of yet, but was planning this year until Covid came. Anxious to see it.

Jeff, Ardfin is about as far away from links as is possible (save for its location next to the sea).... From what I hear, would be right at the top of the discussion if it was, though.


Also keen to see it.

[Adam Lawrence]

I think Ardfin would have to be in that discussion. Haven't played it as of yet, but was planning this year until Covid came. Anxious to see it.

The most important component of linksland is sandy soil. A friend of mine said to me 'There isn't a grain of sand on the whole of Jura'.

[Tom_Doak]

The most important component of linksland is sandy soil. A friend of mine said to me 'There isn't a grain of sand on the whole of Jura'.

Presumably they had to import a bit to build their greens though?

[Duncan Cheslett]

I’ve not played any of these courses, but happily the one which spikes my interest most is also the only one I am ever likely to stump up the money to play.

Machrihanish Dunes.


As for the rest, I can play Silloth as many times a year as I like for £550.

[Keith Phillips]

Dundonald is a fantastic course that proves the point that 'ratings are all about the views'

[Ally Mcintosh]

Dundonald is good fun but to my earlier point, the holes next to the railway (original linksland) feel like they belong whilst some of the others feel a little obvious in the way dunes have been created for containment.


Each hole has individual interest in it though. That in itself elevates the architecture.

[Adam Lawrence]

The most important component of linksland is sandy soil. A friend of mine said to me 'There isn't a grain of sand on the whole of Jura'.

Presumably they had to import a bit to build their greens though?

They did: all the materials and equipment were brought in by barge from Ireland to the pier in the village of Craighouse, about four miles away, and then taken along the single tracked road to site. The initial plan had been to sand cap the course, but this idea was ditched as soon as they realised just how difficult and expensive it would be to get that much material on site. In the end, as the land is very rocky, they had to scavenge across the rest of the estate to find enough topsoil for a growing medium.

[Sean_A]

How do the links courses, or those that some might not term traditional links but are nevertheless located near adjacent to the sea, built in Scotland over the last couple of decades compare to each other?
Mach Dunes
Kingsbarns
Renaissance.
Balmedie.
Dundonald
Castle Stuart
Dumbarnie
Etc
Just curious.
Thoughts?
Arb

I think of Kingsbarns as effectively very similar in style in Castle Stuart.  The ground is in play for many holes.  Interesting greens. Attention to detail is important with a focus not only on playability, but also views. Both are very well executed courses...even so they don't quite play like an older links.

Renaissance is not that different from the above two, but the trees make it seem more naturally connected to the site. I don't think the course plays much different from the above two even though it has a heathland flavour.

Castle Course and Trump Aberdeen strike me as similar in terms of elevated greens designed for better players. Executing the ground on these two courses is quite difficult. Both have arguably more interesting greens (the Castle has a few wild greens) than the above courses.  Like Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart there is a premium on views. Unlike these two courses, the detail of Trump Aberdeen isn't quite at their level. The Castle does have a few low point such as poor drainage which I think holds it back from being mentioned in the same quality level as Castle Stuart, Kingsbarns, RC and Trump Aberdeen....al of which I consider some of the best courses in GB&I.

Dundonald is clearly a step down in quality as the fake dune work is more obvious.  The course is still very good with some high quality holes.

Those are the only five I have played.  I am not rushing back to play any of them again, but my favourite is Castle Stuart.  I also think its the best of the bunch I have seen.  Very much against Doak's feelings, The Castle Course is probably my second favourite of the bunch. I do like that the archie took some bold risks even if it needed toning down a bit.

I also consider Carnegie to be a very good  course and a shoe in top 100 GB&I, but I wouldn't consider it a links by any traditional definition.

Ciao

[Tim Gallant]

How do the links courses, or those that some might not term traditional links but are nevertheless located near adjacent to the sea, built in Scotland over the last couple of decades compare to each other?
Mach Dunes
Kingsbarns
Renaissance.
Balmedie.
Dundonald
Castle Stuart
Dumbarnie
Etc
Just curious.
Thoughts?
Arb

I think of Kingsbarns as effectively very similar in style in Castle Stuart.  The ground is in play for many holes.  Interesting greens. Attention to detail is important with a focus not only on playability, but also views. Both are very well executed courses...even so they don't quite play like an older links.

Renaissance is not that different from the above two, but the trees make it seem more naturally connected to the site. I don't think the course plays much different from the above two even though it has a heathland flavour.

Castle Course and Trump Aberdeen strike me as similar in terms of elevated greens designed for better players. Executing the ground on these two courses is quite difficult. Both have arguably more interesting greens (the Castle has a few wild greens) than the above courses.  Like Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart there is a premium on views. Unlike these two courses, the detail of Trump Aberdeen isn't quite at their level. The Castle does have a few low point such as poor drainage which I think holds it back from being mentioned in the same quality level as Castle Stuart, Kingsbarns, RC and Trump Aberdeen....al of which I consider some of the best courses in GB&I.

Dundonald is clearly a step down in quality as the fake dune work is more obvious.  The course is still very good with some high quality holes.

Those are the only five I have played.  I am not rushing back to play any of them again, but my favourite is Castle Stuart.  I also think its the best of the bunch I have seen.  Very much against Doak's feelings, The Castle Course is probably my second favourite of the bunch. I do like that the archie took some bold risks even if it needed toning down a bit.

I also consider Carnegie to be a very good  course and a shoe in top 100 GB&I, but I wouldn't consider it a links by any traditional definition.

Ciao

Sean,

Great descriptions. The only area where I'd differ is that for me, I found Renaissance to be slightly less playable than Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart only because of the narrowness of the fairways. Caveat that I've not played it in a few years, so this may have been addressed, but I remember a few of the bunkers being well into the rough, so I can only imagine they wanted to show that the course had some bite in order to attract a Scottish Open (which they've now gotten). Though that being said, Renaissance is a members course, whereas CS and KB are not, so maybe playability for all is not at the top of the agenda in terms of day-to-day set-up.

[Sean_A]

How do the links courses, or those that some might not term traditional links but are nevertheless located near adjacent to the sea, built in Scotland over the last couple of decades compare to each other?
Mach Dunes
Kingsbarns
Renaissance.
Balmedie.
Dundonald
Castle Stuart
Dumbarnie
Etc
Just curious.
Thoughts?
Arb

I think of Kingsbarns as effectively very similar in style in Castle Stuart.  The ground is in play for many holes.  Interesting greens. Attention to detail is important with a focus not only on playability, but also views. Both are very well executed courses...even so they don't quite play like an older links.

Renaissance is not that different from the above two, but the trees make it seem more naturally connected to the site. I don't think the course plays much different from the above two even though it has a heathland flavour.

Castle Course and Trump Aberdeen strike me as similar in terms of elevated greens designed for better players. Executing the ground on these two courses is quite difficult. Both have arguably more interesting greens (the Castle has a few wild greens) than the above courses.  Like Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart there is a premium on views. Unlike these two courses, the detail of Trump Aberdeen isn't quite at their level. The Castle does have a few low point such as poor drainage which I think holds it back from being mentioned in the same quality level as Castle Stuart, Kingsbarns, RC and Trump Aberdeen....al of which I consider some of the best courses in GB&I.

Dundonald is clearly a step down in quality as the fake dune work is more obvious.  The course is still very good with some high quality holes.

Those are the only five I have played.  I am not rushing back to play any of them again, but my favourite is Castle Stuart.  I also think its the best of the bunch I have seen.  Very much against Doak's feelings, The Castle Course is probably my second favourite of the bunch. I do like that the archie took some bold risks even if it needed toning down a bit.

I also consider Carnegie to be a very good  course and a shoe in top 100 GB&I, but I wouldn't consider it a links by any traditional definition.

Ciao

Sean,

Great descriptions. The only area where I'd differ is that for me, I found Renaissance to be slightly less playable than Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart only because of the narrowness of the fairways. Caveat that I've not played it in a few years, so this may have been addressed, but I remember a few of the bunkers being well into the rough, so I can only imagine they wanted to show that the course had some bite in order to attract a Scottish Open (which they've now gotten). Though that being said, Renaissance is a members course, whereas CS and KB are not, so maybe playability for all is not at the top of the agenda in terms of day-to-day set-up.

Tim

I agree with you. RC may well be the least player friendly of the lot in terms of width.  I too saw some bunkers absolutely miles into what was very often crazy harsh rough. It makes up for narrowness a bit with many greens which can be accessed via the ground. In any case, I think RC is a very under-rated course. 

Ciao

[Tim Gallant]

How do the links courses, or those that some might not term traditional links but are nevertheless located near adjacent to the sea, built in Scotland over the last couple of decades compare to each other?
Mach Dunes
Kingsbarns
Renaissance.
Balmedie.
Dundonald
Castle Stuart
Dumbarnie
Etc
Just curious.
Thoughts?
Arb

I think of Kingsbarns as effectively very similar in style in Castle Stuart.  The ground is in play for many holes.  Interesting greens. Attention to detail is important with a focus not only on playability, but also views. Both are very well executed courses...even so they don't quite play like an older links.

Renaissance is not that different from the above two, but the trees make it seem more naturally connected to the site. I don't think the course plays much different from the above two even though it has a heathland flavour.

Castle Course and Trump Aberdeen strike me as similar in terms of elevated greens designed for better players. Executing the ground on these two courses is quite difficult. Both have arguably more interesting greens (the Castle has a few wild greens) than the above courses.  Like Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart there is a premium on views. Unlike these two courses, the detail of Trump Aberdeen isn't quite at their level. The Castle does have a few low point such as poor drainage which I think holds it back from being mentioned in the same quality level as Castle Stuart, Kingsbarns, RC and Trump Aberdeen....al of which I consider some of the best courses in GB&I.

Dundonald is clearly a step down in quality as the fake dune work is more obvious.  The course is still very good with some high quality holes.

Those are the only five I have played.  I am not rushing back to play any of them again, but my favourite is Castle Stuart.  I also think its the best of the bunch I have seen.  Very much against Doak's feelings, The Castle Course is probably my second favourite of the bunch. I do like that the archie took some bold risks even if it needed toning down a bit.

I also consider Carnegie to be a very good  course and a shoe in top 100 GB&I, but I wouldn't consider it a links by any traditional definition.

Ciao

Sean,

Great descriptions. The only area where I'd differ is that for me, I found Renaissance to be slightly less playable than Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart only because of the narrowness of the fairways. Caveat that I've not played it in a few years, so this may have been addressed, but I remember a few of the bunkers being well into the rough, so I can only imagine they wanted to show that the course had some bite in order to attract a Scottish Open (which they've now gotten). Though that being said, Renaissance is a members course, whereas CS and KB are not, so maybe playability for all is not at the top of the agenda in terms of day-to-day set-up.

Tim

I agree with you. RC may well be the least player friendly of the lot in terms of width.  I too saw some bunkers absolutely miles into what was very often crazy harsh rough. It makes up for narrowness a bit with many greens which can be accessed via the ground. In any case, I think RC is a very under-rated course. 

Ciao

Agreed - it doesn't get talked about enough and I think there are some truly great holes on the course. Would love to go back and see it again - hopefully soon!

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’m sure this doesn’t need reiterated but when I played and visited the RC a few times in 2008 and 2009, none of those bunkers were in the rough.


I thought it an excellent course.

[Thomas Dai]

Regarding RC, I seem to recall from various threads over the years that the fairways at RC were once much, much wider to the extent that the bunkers that are now in the rough were once in the fairway.
Atb

[Niall C]

RC is an excellent course but I can't honestly say I thought it too narrow the few times I've had the pleasure of playing it. As Tim pointed out, it is a members course whereas all the others (now that Dundonald has been sold) are effectively pay and play so maybe that's the difference in set up although I don't recall Mach Dunes being in the excessively wide category either. In fact those two courses retain a more traditional sense of scale, at least to my eye, whereas the others are obviously scaled up modern courses.


Again to my eye, those two courses are also the two courses that appear to have had the lightest touch in terms of earth shifting although I appreciate that there was a fair bit of earth shifted for Renaissance in comparison to Mach Dunes. 


Niall

[David Jones]

Regarding RC, I seem to recall from various threads over the years that the fairways at RC were once much, much wider to the extent that the bunkers that are now in the rough were once in the fairway.
Atb

Tom was very kind to spend some time with me last year talking about some of the set-up changes at RC. You can read the piece here https://www.ukgolfguy.com/golf-blog/tom-doak-renaissance-scottish-open but this bit is the most relevant to this discussion -


'The course is now about half as wide as when I built it. They stopped mowing large portions of fairways a few years ago to prove the course was a tough test, though I thought the lenght and difficulties around the green would take care of that.

Given the scoring last year it will be interesting to see what else has happened since then. They changed the routing for the Ladies Scottish Open and it made so much more sense. Last year's didn't work for fans or TV so hopefully they'll sort that out this year at least....

[Sean_A]

RC is an excellent course but I can't honestly say I thought it too narrow the few times I've had the pleasure of playing it. As Tim pointed out, it is a members course whereas all the others (now that Dundonald has been sold) are effectively pay and play so maybe that's the difference in set up although I don't recall Mach Dunes being in the excessively wide category either. In fact those two courses retain a more traditional sense of scale, at least to my eye, whereas the others are obviously scaled up modern courses.

Again to my eye, those two courses are also the two courses that appear to have had the lightest touch in terms of earth shifting although I appreciate that there was a fair bit of earth shifted for Renaissance in comparison to Mach Dunes. 

Niall

I find it interesting that the hole which required the most man-made intervention at Castle Stuart is my least favourite hole. The walk following the hole doesn't help.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Whilst the 12th at Castle Stuart took large earth movement, the whole course is completely man-made so it’s probably not even worth singling it out...


...As I said in reply 4 (and Niall has seemingly agreed with above), I find it very hard to look past the most natural courses when it comes to links land. So whilst Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns are better feats of architecture, I’d still rather find myself playing Mach Dunes regularly.


I even take this to the extent of over-styling on links courses. They need to present in an older fashion rather than have the trappings of modernity. That is why I was interested to see how C&C would tackle Coul and it’s why I’m interested to see how Tom tackles St.Patricks.


For instance, if Coul had ended up “feeling” like a C&C course, it would have partially failed in my book... I do realise that I may be in the minority there though.

[David Jones]

I even take this to the extent of over-styling on links courses. They need to present in an older fashion rather than have the trappings of modernity. That is why I was interested to see how C&C would tackle Coul and it’s why I’m interested to see how Tom tackles St.Patricks.

I played Dumbarnie recently and if you are looking for some over-styling then it would be a good exhibit. Having said that, no-one outside the GCA world I have spoken to who's played it has mentioned it. To a person they have been effusive in their praise.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks David.
Now I think about it a bit more I seem to recall Tom making the same comment when he was involved in the TV commentary for a while. Good move on TV’s part by the way to have the architect responsible for the course in the booth.
Atb

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