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John Kavanaugh

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Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2020, 11:51:55 AM »
I've done the exact type of thing while under extreme pressure both in sports and life. What makes matters worse is when it feels like you are floating above your body watching the whole thing unfold.

JLahrman

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Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2020, 12:07:36 PM »
There's a ton to the story that folks will never know, but the short of it is the local caddie had a total brain fart. 

He's a good kid, had worked hard to get his player to the round of 16, and was fully engaged in their mission.  He feels horrible about it. 

Should never have happened, but the Bandon caddies are trying to help him get through this.



There is no way it was intentional, but it was mystifying to watch. Especially with it being a Bandon caddie and not the player's own caddie I do feel bad for him. I also though the other player's caddie/dad came off looking poor. The penalty was observed and called, yet he kept self-righteously yammering on about it.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2020, 01:23:07 PM »
Well...he clearly intentionally touched the sand...just not in an effort to give his player feedback about the sand.


Like he was trying to rub something off the kitchen table...

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2020, 01:30:40 PM »
I've had family members, non-golfer friends, and young/ inexperienced club caddies caddie for me before in tournaments and it is stressful when your caddie doesn't fully understand the rules and etiquette of tournament golf.  There are many ways that they can screw up.   I had a caddie ask another player in my group what he hit on a par 3 for instance.  It wasn't to gain information for me, it was just that he was curious and thought the guy hit the ball a long way.  I had a caddie pick up an opponent's ball because he wasn't thinking and thought he stumbled upon a proV that he could use.  They can walk in opponent's lines, stand in their view and move, and on and on.  Usually when they make an error, they have good intentions and are trying to take initiative to be helpful. 

You'd hope that someone capable of getting to the elite 8 in the Am would have one of the best caddies available at the resort (or would bring their own- e.g. Arkansas teammate).  But maybe the pandemic limited his alternatives. 

David Wuthrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2020, 01:34:20 PM »
Sven,


Tell him that I feel sorry for him, everyone makes mistakes.


In the future, tell him that telling the truth is always best, no matter the situation (golf and life).  I think some people don't feel for him since the cameras clearly show him moving the sand, but yet he denied it.  Most people will forgive an honest mistake if the individual shows remorse.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2020, 02:26:01 PM »
Players cannot agree to waive a Rule.  But in a match, a player can choose to look the other way.  Once the infraction is called, it is too late.  Interesting to note that it was the other caddy who called the infraction and that he is Strafaci's father.


In a super small world story I just met and played golf with Mr. Strafaci two weeks ago at White Bear. I found him to be a really terrific guy.


Its an unfortunate situation but everyone knows you can't touch the sand in a greenside bunker, let alone get down and feel it with your hands. In a high profile event of course you would say "what are you doing?" Denying that he touched the sand at all after the fact wasn't smart. Too bad but that's the rules...
H.P.S.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2020, 02:54:28 PM »
The person I really feel for is Segundo Oliva Pinto. Making it to the round of 16 in a US Amateur, and getting to the 18th tee all square is a hell of an accomplishment, and also a hell of an opportunity. The opportunity part got yanked from him. I was watching on my club's patio and we didn't have the sound on, but I saw SOP give an interview after the round and the fact that he looked relatively composed not in full-on Elin-chasing-after-the-MFer-with-a-9-iron mode makes him a bigger man than me. No Lebron/JR Smith-type meme material or anything.



I didn't hear Papa Strafaci after the fact. Even if the TV hadn't been muted, I probably still wouldn't have heard him. I couldn't shut up about what I had just seen either.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2020, 03:04:59 PM »
There's a ton to the story that folks will never know, but the short of it is the local caddie had a total brain fart. 


I would be interested in knowing exactly what happened; have only seen the clip where the guy is doing something with his had to the sand.  Don't know what led to this, whether the player had hit his shot from the sand before, or the reason for him doing this.


My understanding of the rule, in reference to jeffwarne's example, is that if the caddie raked the bunker away from the area and line of play simply to tidy up the course, even before the player hit his shot, there is no penalty.


As golfers, we make any number of mistakes in most rounds- bad judgement, brain farts, just plain poor execution.  A clear thinker would accept that a caddie will also make a mistake.  I don't know the facts, but might the player have been a bit more vigilant?  Assuming that the player had not yet hit the shot, what was the caddie doing in the bunker anyways?


A funny caddie story: I have a late tee time in the Columbus District GA Open at Muirfield Village back in the late '70s.  The caddie master had run out of caddies and he was only able to recruit a young 10 or so year-old boy to carry my bag.  Play was so slow that we went off an hour after our scheduled tee time and the pace of play was around six hours.  There was a two or three group backup on 9 tee, so I sent my caddie down to the bottom of the hill on the left to forecaddie.  Apparently he got bored, set my clubs down, and started chasing the wildlife.


When the tee finally cleared, I hit a 3-wood down the left side, figuring I'd find my ball at the bottom in the light rough at worse.  I get down there and there is no ball, clubs or caddie to be found.  A five-minute search found my clubs in high rough some 30+ yards in the woods near a creek and the young caddie playing along the banks, but no ball.  My round was not in good shape by then anyways, but having to walk back to the tee where there were now two or three groups glaring at me was not fun.  As I recall, I hit the ball again in a similar line, hit a provisional, found my first one in the light rough, and managed to make my 6.  I doubt that the boy remembers his initiation into the caddie corps.       

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2020, 03:09:06 PM »


You'd hope that someone capable of getting to the elite 8 in the Am would have one of the best caddies available at the resort (or would bring their own- e.g. Arkansas teammate).  But maybe the pandemic limited his alternatives.


I would hedge a bet that many of Bandon's "best caddies" chose to not caddie the tournament.  More money from double bags on the other courses, with most likely wealthier clients, and much less pressure. 


I could certainly be wrong.  Just a hunch.
#nowhitebelt

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2020, 03:12:51 PM »
If the caddie did everything the same minus the hand action would there still be a penalty? Say he got in and walked a step or two and then turned around and walked out?



The rule only says you can't deliberately touch the sand with a "hand, club, rake, or other object". Assuming that a shoe doesn't count as "another object" there can't be anything wrong with the caddie walking into the bunker. A player might want his caddie to have a closer look at a bunker shot to get input on the lie, see what club he thinks he might need to clear the lip, etc. There can't be anything wrong with the caddie simply entering the bunker.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2020, 03:45:04 PM »
What’s missing from the discussion is the announcer had just stated that sand had been blown out of the bunker leaving what appeared to be a hard pan lie. The caddie likely noticed the same and intentionally tested the depth of the sand with his fingers.  I immediately commented to the Mrs. that his man just lost the match.


Made me sick.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....


Michael Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2020, 04:27:36 PM »


You'd hope that someone capable of getting to the elite 8 in the Am would have one of the best caddies available at the resort (or would bring their own- e.g. Arkansas teammate).  But maybe the pandemic limited his alternatives.


I would hedge a bet that many of Bandon's "best caddies" chose to not caddie the tournament.  More money from double bags on the other courses, with most likely wealthier clients, and much less pressure. 


I could certainly be wrong.  Just a hunch.
That's short-sighted.  Ask Michael Greller, Spieth's caddy, whether or not it is beneficial to work for a preeminent amateur or in his case, just work the event.


And someone asked earlier about how it happened. . . . there was very little to no sand in the bunker.  The second the caddie climbed in the bunker, I thought, "Oh no he didn't just do that."  Then he bends over to touch the sand, and the ruling was inevitable.  Painful to watch.  You feel bad for everyone.  Would have loved to see the kid play the shot; I have no idea what I would have done, but very confident that I would not have been able to get up and down in that situation.

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2020, 04:43:57 PM »

That's short-sighted.  Ask Michael Greller, Spieth's caddy, whether or not it is beneficial to work for a preeminent amateur or in his case, just work the event.




Maybe so.  Having communicated with caddies that I know personally that work there tell me that many of the top tier caddies chose to not work the event makes me think it is possible.  The caddie that made the mistake is a first year Bandon caddie.


I never claimed there isn't potential upside to working the event, but as a former caddie myself I know that vet caddies almost always follow the short term better loop over the potential of drawing a straw and getting a world beater talent.  The chances that any of them could maybe go on to build a relationship with a future tour player are pretty minimal.  How many other caddies outside of Greller have the same story?  Plus, Greller didn't even end up on the bag of the kid he originally looped for.  JT pushed him off on Spieth in a future event.  So, it took him a second opportunity with an all-world talent to get the life he has now.  And, Greller was a teacher and caddied part-time which makes it a lot easier to pass up more money and take a gamble like that.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 04:48:18 PM by Jeff Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2020, 06:03:01 PM »
Lou,


Here you go.  2nd shot goes in green side bunker on 18 with match all square.  As he's getting ready to hit his shot, caddy jumps in bunker and plays with the sand.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TArEd4v-zQQ

Michael Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2020, 07:51:44 PM »
[

Maybe so.  Having communicated with caddies that I know personally that work there tell me that many of the top tier caddies chose to not work the event makes me think it is possible.  The caddie that made the mistake is a first year Bandon caddie.


I never claimed there isn't potential upside to working the event, but as a former caddie myself I know that vet caddies almost always follow the short term better loop over the potential of drawing a straw and getting a world beater talent.  The chances that any of them could maybe go on to build a relationship with a future tour player are pretty minimal.  How many other caddies outside of Greller have the same story?  Plus, Greller didn't even end up on the bag of the kid he originally looped for.  JT pushed him off on Spieth in a future event.  So, it took him a second opportunity with an all-world talent to get the life he has now.  And, Greller was a teacher and caddied part-time which makes it a lot easier to pass up more money and take a gamble like that.

[/size]
[/size]While I understand the thought process, you have to make your opportunities in life, even if the opportunity may seem remote.  These are the best amateur players in the world.  Nearly everyone is going pro. I would assume 20ish percent will make the tour at some point.  Granted, maybe one will have Spieth's career, but if I had the choice to carry the bag of one of these kids for money (the amateur caddies do get paid don't they? You imply a lesser amount), versus some overweight 70-year old (and don't anyone think that I am implying Kavanaugh from that statement  ;) ), I am taking the kid.  I find it interesting that such a sentiment is not shared among the veteran caddies that seem to have chosen caddying as their profession.  To each his own.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2020, 07:57:19 PM »

That's short-sighted.  Ask Michael Greller, Spieth's caddy, whether or not it is beneficial to work for a preeminent amateur or in his case, just work the event.




Maybe so.  Having communicated with caddies that I know personally that work there tell me that many of the top tier caddies chose to not work the event makes me think it is possible.  The caddie that made the mistake is a first year Bandon caddie.


I never claimed there isn't potential upside to working the event, but as a former caddie myself I know that vet caddies almost always follow the short term better loop over the potential of drawing a straw and getting a world beater talent.  The chances that any of them could maybe go on to build a relationship with a future tour player are pretty minimal.  How many other caddies outside of Greller have the same story?  Plus, Greller didn't even end up on the bag of the kid he originally looped for.  JT pushed him off on Spieth in a future event.  So, it took him a second opportunity with an all-world talent to get the life he has now.  And, Greller was a teacher and caddied part-time which makes it a lot easier to pass up more money and take a gamble like that.


Fortson is 100% correct
all vets had no incentive from the resort to work the event
1} in the covid bubble, double testing
2) less money than double bag 36 holes per day
3) uncertain schedule
etc...


all those who did it, did it for the experience alone and sacrificed their normal work schedule
yet, some of those A+ vets would have been like an ace in the hole, no doubt
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 10:28:39 PM by William_G »
It's all about the golf!

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2020, 07:58:52 PM »
While I understand the thought process, you have to make your opportunities in life, even if the opportunity may seem remote.  These are the best amateur players in the world.  Nearly everyone is going pro. I would assume 20ish percent will make the tour at some point.  Granted, maybe one will have Spieth's career, but if I had the choice to carry the bag of one of these kids for money (the amateur caddies do get paid don't they? You imply a lesser amount), versus some overweight 70-year old (and don't anyone think that I am implying Kavanaugh from that statement  ;) ), I am taking the kid.  I find it interesting that such a sentiment is not shared among the veteran caddies that seem to have chosen caddying as their profession.  To each his own.


To be completely transparent...I agree with you.  I'd rather caddie in the US Am with, or without, the chance of it growing into a future full time gig on tour.  I've caddied in the US Am.  It's a lot of fun. 


To answer the pay question.  Yes, the caddies will get paid.  But it's a single bag carry, so outside a couple of guys I would imagine if you loop in the tournament you're leaving money on the table.  Potentially half of what you could earn double bagging it for a couple chops. 
#nowhitebelt

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2020, 07:59:31 PM »
The person I really feel for is Segundo Oliva Pinto. Making it to the round of 16 in a US Amateur, and getting to the 18th tee all square is a hell of an accomplishment, and also a hell of an opportunity. The opportunity part got yanked from him. I was watching on my club's patio and we didn't have the sound on, but I saw SOP give an interview after the round and the fact that he looked relatively composed not in full-on Elin-chasing-after-the-MFer-with-a-9-iron mode makes him a bigger man than me. No Lebron/JR Smith-type meme material or anything.



I didn't hear Papa Strafaci after the fact. Even if the TV hadn't been muted, I probably still wouldn't have heard him. I couldn't shut up about what I had just seen either.


Strafaci's dad was all over both the caddie and Pinto as they both didn't know it was a rule violation
It's all about the golf!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2020, 08:09:14 PM »
Lou,


Here you go.  2nd shot goes in green side bunker on 18 with match all square.  As he's getting ready to hit his shot, caddy jumps in bunker and plays with the sand.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TArEd4v-zQQ


Thanks for the clip.


Wow!  I wonder if the caddie has been around golf much.  It just doesn't seem like running a hand across the sand is something that a golfer would do- maybe dig his feet in a bit in a simulated stance which gains similar information but not a penalty unless done excessively.  The player demonstrated a lot of grace.  I hope he gets an equal break in his favor some day.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2020, 08:09:48 PM »


You'd hope that someone capable of getting to the elite 8 in the Am would have one of the best caddies available at the resort (or would bring their own- e.g. Arkansas teammate).  But maybe the pandemic limited his alternatives.


I would hedge a bet that many of Bandon's "best caddies" chose to not caddie the tournament.  More money from double bags on the other courses, with most likely wealthier clients, and much less pressure. 


I could certainly be wrong.  Just a hunch.


Yep.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #71 on: August 14, 2020, 10:44:40 PM »
It's all about the golf!

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2020, 10:49:12 PM »


You'd hope that someone capable of getting to the elite 8 in the Am would have one of the best caddies available at the resort (or would bring their own- e.g. Arkansas teammate).  But maybe the pandemic limited his alternatives.


I would hedge a bet that many of Bandon's "best caddies" chose to not caddie the tournament.  More money from double bags on the other courses, with most likely wealthier clients, and much less pressure. 


I could certainly be wrong.  Just a hunch.


Yep.


Jeff:


Your bet would be partially right and partially wrong.  To caddie in this Am was a major hassle.  The Covid regulations were onerous, as they should have been.  Going into the bubble of the Am wasn't going to work for many of the caddies whose family or social interactions would have been severely curtailed.


There were a limited number of players who took Bandon caddies.  Part of this was due to the restrictions put on the number of accompanying guests a player was allowed to bring.  If you took a local caddie, you could only bring one guest.  But if Dad came as your caddie, Mom could come too.


Many of us looked at this week as a good time to take a break, its been a long busy summer up until now thanks to the opening of the Sheep Ranch.  A good number had requests to work it, including from guys who had had a positive experience with their local caddies in the four-ball a little over a year ago.  And a good number of senior guys volunteered to work this solely for the experience and/or the possibility of linking up with a rising star.


As for the contention that caddies traded off working the Am for other golfers on other courses, there has been a bit of play, but the number of caddie rounds is pretty limited.  The lodging here is being used to accommodate the needs of the Am, so its not like we're getting the normal high season guests right now.


Joe:


Thanks for your facebook post with the hint that I might have been the guy who had the infraction.  As you now know, it wasn't me, but the insinuation that it might have been was a nice touch.


At this point, we're trying to make sure that one of our own, a guy who helped his 212th ranked player to the round of 16, doesn't receive any more abuse.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2020, 12:03:10 AM »
thank you Sven
It's all about the golf!

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Men's US Amateur Bandon Dunes
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2020, 03:32:03 AM »
  • I don't recall ever seeing a caddie entering a bunker before their player has hit out of it.  Good to know that it is allowed per the rules it as someone posted.
  • I agree that Mr. Strafaci didn't have a good look going on and on in the background after the rules official was on site, then another rules official came on site. I couldn't hear what was exactly transpiring, but let the rules officials sort it out and respond to their questions when asked. Granted it was a very pressure filled situation and we all may react differently than we would have liked.
  • Brant Brewer (caddie and name is published on espn now) I'm sure feels terrible and he will have to live with it. Making a mistake is what everyone does, we are human that is easily understandable. What I and most (I assume) have issue with is not being truthful of what he had done. It is a good reminder for everyone of how it looks when you tell a lie, yet you are caught on camera. Live life in the light and you won't fear darkness.
  • I thought Oliva Pinto took this extremely graciously, his interview was impressive right after being eliminated. He even called BB that night to forgive him and defended him. Class move. Karma will come back and help him down the road.
  • Bones Mackay was right there as it was unfolding and I'd love to hear his take of what he was feeling. I watched it again recorded and Bones is describing the scene until the caddie enters the bunker then goes quiet until after the caddie is caught by Mr. Strafaci, then Bones chimes in again. I really wonder if Bones saw what happened and choose not to say anything on air as he was only the broadcaster.
  • Bandon Dunes was awesome on TV and hope they expand to Pacific Dunes in the future for some USGA events.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

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